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Thread: MPG Trick work???

  1. #1
    Advanced Tuner domestic rice's Avatar
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    MPG Trick work???

    Someone posted this on another site and was wondering what you guys thought about it? Will it work?

    "replace both front NB's with wideband o2's that can simmulate NB o2's. (LC1)

    On the inovative lc1(What I use), one of the outputs is set up to simmulate the factory NB o2 sensor. You can adjust the settings to fool the pcm. You will need one for each side.
    Normally, when cruising around in closed loop, The pcm regulates the fuel to maintain a 14.7AFR. Your o2 sensors measure the exhaust AFR and feeds a mv signal back to the pcm. The pcm knows that 450mv
    from the O2 sensor equals close to 14.7afr. What if you change the programmable output of the wideband sensors? Instead of outputting 450mv at 14.7afr, rescale the LC1 settings to produce 450mv at 16.1afr. something like this:
    14.7afr= 410mv instead of 450mv
    16.1afr= 450mv instead of 492mv
    17.5afr=489mv instead of 535mv

    by doing this you fool your pcm. It thinks its regulating 14.7afr because it see's 450mv from each sensor. But, 450mv no longer equals 14.7 instead, 450mv equals 16.1arf and you are now using 10% less fuel.

    now you must increase your pe enrichment x rpm table by around 10%"
    99Z A4 w/ SS LT's, h/f cats, magnaflow catback, port/polish t/b, egr deleted, ls6 intake, lid, 3.73's, hpt, performabuilt level 1 tranny, 3600 stall, Stage 2.5 (5.3 heads), Torquer 2 cam, 42# reworked injectors, TR6 plugs.

    2007 Avalanche LTZ - Catback and Eibach springs

  2. #2
    Супер Модератор EC_Tune's Avatar
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    Don't know why you would need to increase PE Enrich 10%. Can you explain that?

    BTW: it would make your engine run dangerously lean just before entering PE. Not good.
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  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner domestic rice's Avatar
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    Can I explain, no. It was on ls1tech posted by someone and I just wanted to throw it out here so the people who really know this program and tuning could say if it will work or not.
    99Z A4 w/ SS LT's, h/f cats, magnaflow catback, port/polish t/b, egr deleted, ls6 intake, lid, 3.73's, hpt, performabuilt level 1 tranny, 3600 stall, Stage 2.5 (5.3 heads), Torquer 2 cam, 42# reworked injectors, TR6 plugs.

    2007 Avalanche LTZ - Catback and Eibach springs

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    Супер Модератор EC_Tune's Avatar
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    I'm not against testing theories. Just not on my vehicle... LOL
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  5. #5
    Senior Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Too much trickery.... I mean, it's one thing to recover wasted fuel (high cam overlap at idle scenarios, etc), but if you want MPG buy a 4-cylinder to daily drive.
    Steve Williams
    TunedbyFrost.com


  6. #6
    Tuner alanderson1978's Avatar
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    I'm not talkin' 'bout MPG in a public thread anymore.....
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanderson1978
    I'm not talkin' 'bout MPG in a public thread anymore.....
    lol...I do I really do feel your pain...$2.70-2.80/gal for premium here now and its not like theres been any major hurricaines this year so i dunno whats up
    It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...

    A wise man once said "google it"

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner domestic rice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost
    Too much trickery.... I mean, it's one thing to recover wasted fuel (high cam overlap at idle scenarios, etc), but if you want MPG buy a 4-cylinder to daily drive.
    Had a 4 banger and the MPG was not all that much better.

    I dont think anyone buys one of these cars (LSX/V8) for the great MPG but if making a few adjustments can yeald safe positive results why not. I am not unhappy with my MPG now (18/21), hell with an A4, 3.73's, and would gestimate ~325 whp, that is good IMO. People always post about tunes or tricks they have found successful, I was just putting this up there to see if anyone here has heard or tried of it.
    99Z A4 w/ SS LT's, h/f cats, magnaflow catback, port/polish t/b, egr deleted, ls6 intake, lid, 3.73's, hpt, performabuilt level 1 tranny, 3600 stall, Stage 2.5 (5.3 heads), Torquer 2 cam, 42# reworked injectors, TR6 plugs.

    2007 Avalanche LTZ - Catback and Eibach springs

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner S2H's Avatar
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    My first LS1 Z28 car was getting 32mpg on the highway..doing an average of over 120mph from Kansas City to Austin(just outside of austin in a town called Marble falls)...
    we made a 775mile trip in just barely under 8hrs from my leaving my door to hitting our hotel room....3 gas stops,dinner sit down inside hardees(carl's jr for you west coastals..), and a midnight candybar and fountain drink...all included in that 8 hr period...

    and like I said..I got 32 mpg...
    heads..cam...intake..exhaust..suspension...a little tuning
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  10. #10
    Tuning Addict WS6FirebirdTA00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost
    Too much trickery.... I mean, it's one thing to recover wasted fuel (high cam overlap at idle scenarios, etc), but if you want MPG buy a 4-cylinder to daily drive.
    I am with you. If you want better gas mileage buy another car. It will save money in the end (did me). Why would you want to run AFR in the 16's? I would rather know I have the fueling I need so I dont go lean in PE at first.

    I have tuned several cars that got right at 30 mpg on the highway keeping normal fueling. If you tune it right you will get good gas mileage. With "normal" driving around town, I get 17-18 mpg out of my car with a cam.
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  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner Pro Street's Avatar
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  12. #12
    I run open loop SD. I used the VE multiplier table to tweak a small area to yield ~15.5 afr while cruising between certain rpm and certain tps%, and I dialed in my DFCO. I seem to be getting much better gas mileage...not that it was horrible to start with but every bit helps.

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner n0dih's Avatar
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    Sounds very close to what I am doing on my LT1. I have a Open Loop AFR table, so being my VE Tables are very close to 128 BLM, the values there should be reasonably close.

    But in my first 600 miles of running it that way, I am up to 20.3 mpg, which the previous 4 tanks (over 1200 miles) is solid 17.6+/- 0.05 mpg. Still under watch still....

    Quote Originally Posted by WS6 GreeN
    I run open loop SD. I used the VE multiplier table to tweak a small area to yield ~15.5 afr while cruising between certain rpm and certain tps%, and I dialed in my DFCO. I seem to be getting much better gas mileage...not that it was horrible to start with but every bit helps.

  14. #14
    Супер Модератор EC_Tune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foff667
    lol...I do I really do feel your pain...$2.70-2.80/gal for premium here now and its not like theres been any major hurricaines this year so i dunno whats up
    Geez it's $3.10 for the cheap crap here! Time to dump the F150 & time for a Cobalt or HHR...
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by EC_Tune
    Geez it's $3.10 for the cheap crap here! Time to dump the F150 & time for a Cobalt or HHR...
    What gas station did you use Doug, I had for cough up $3.37 at Mobil near work (VanOwen & DeSoto).

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner n0dih's Avatar
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    We are at $2.49-$2.549 right now in the area for 87 octane, and $2.339 for E85 here, and aorund $2.109 for E85 in Rockford, IL area.

    I have been tuning my iron headed LT1 (note iron heads outflow alum LT1 heads significantly) for about a year now and what is odd is when I would bump up timing in the cruise rpm range, mpg would drop, and then drop it back down to closer to stock, it would perk back up.

    I am running factory 3.42's and a very small factory cam (191/196 duration, .420/.430 lift on a 110). Is that common? I see in the 34-38 degrees timing at cuise. When I see up in the low 40's mpg seems too much for decent mpg.

    Ideas?
    Last edited by n0dih; 03-14-2007 at 11:18 AM.

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    Your timing is probably exceeding the MBT (Max Best Torque) threshold for that rpm/load. Once you crest over the MBT the engine is working too hard (either before MBT or past MBT) to keep the rpms where desired. This can cause a loss in MPG. Also knowing where your torque maxes out based on TPS% can assist in shift point tuning, which should result in better fuel economy. Another reason why advancing timing until knock then back off, is not often optimal.

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner n0dih's Avatar
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    How do you quantify the point of MBT? In my case it is an LT1 on OBD1 (I use TunerCat) and I don't get a load factor. Just MAF (well, I run SD mode), MAP, TPS and PW are my only load factors I get. Can I calc a "load factor" off that? Can I use a chassis dyno to maintain a certain load to try to evaluate it? Probably too expensive to do though.

    I have always felt my cam is waay to small for the gearing I have. 65 mph cruise rpm is 1900. The cam was really intended for cars with 2.56's and OD so cruise in the 1200-1500 rpm is normal.

  19. #19
    Senior Tuner S2H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12secSS
    Your timing is probably exceeding the MBT (Max Best Torque) threshold for that rpm/load. Once you crest over the MBT the engine is working too hard (either before MBT or past MBT) to keep the rpms where desired. This can cause a loss in MPG. Also knowing where your torque maxes out based on TPS% can assist in shift point tuning, which should result in better fuel economy. Another reason why advancing timing until knock then back off, is not often optimal.
    one thing I try to do...is I try to figure out where my best spark is...
    basically give the pcm extra fuel...increase spark..as it continues to burn you will see a leaner and leaner amount at a wideband...when it stops leaning out you have reached your max spark that does any good...if it knocks before you rech that then you stop and back off a hair..

    usually it takes a while so I pretty much just use that for WOT as its easier to get just one small section than it is for the whole tune...
    and mostly I've done this on my car only..a few close friends that I have done some extensive work on as well...as it just takes to long to do it with normal customers and I would have to charge a lot more money to do all of that...
    -Scott -

  20. #20
    Супер Модератор EC_Tune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12secSS
    What gas station did you use Doug, I had for cough up $3.37 at Mobil near work (VanOwen & DeSoto).
    I usually hit the Valero on Desoto for the F150. It's a pig and doesn't care what it eats...

    Ran into some less expensive stuff in Sun Valley along Sunland tonite. 2.98 for 87...
    Unocal was 3.03
    Last edited by EC_Tune; 03-15-2007 at 08:04 AM.
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