I have to start over - Write Entire is SCARY!

[blindsquirrel]

MSPaint to the rescue.

adapters-mspaint.jpg

All injectors can rotate while clipped in, if that would cause a leak we'd all be dead because everything with port injection would have killed everybody with fire. I suspect yours leaked because there was something not right with it.

The problem with rotating the stock LSA injectors in the LSA manifold is that the injectors are trapped in that annoyingly-small little pocket and the connector will hit aluminum before the spray can get around to a clear area of the port.

[JumboShrimp]

Thanks for the images - makes sense. It looks like it sprays the other way but... apparently not?
Yes, that area is very tiny and it can't spin very much if at all. I will reach out to FIC about all this as well.
Ron??

[blindsquirrel]

The LSA should've had the injectors inside the lid. Wouldn't be an issue then, and wouldn't have required the oddball spray pattern in the first place.

[RonSSnova]

Thanks for the images - makes sense. It looks like it sprays the other way but... apparently not?
Yes, that area is very tiny and it can't spin very much if at all. I will reach out to FIC about all this as well.
Ron??

Not sure what to say. I still believe that after that spray fans out it's hitting the adapter.
I don't know if you have 4 hole injectors or a single hole. They basically have the pintle ball visible when they begin getting larger.

[blindsquirrel]

screenshot.29-12-2023 23.23.10.png

Does that help?

I have always thought that it would be better with the thinnest 'adapter' possible to still get the gaskets to seal up and to hell with worrying about a smooth transition between the port differences. Thinner adapter would get the injector closer to free air inside the port.

[JumboShrimp]

D'oh!
I did not see that drawing till today - I must not have this thread set to notify me or some other DumbAss move.
Yes, that helps and confirms what both are talking about.
The current injectors are the Short Deka 60's - so they DO spray straight down? Which is better, but the adapter may still be the issue?
Central PA is DONE with C5 Season - another 8" of snow today. I guess it's time to get wrenching....

Thanks again - sorry for the delay.

[JumboShrimp]

I was told to and have decided to get rid of the SD tune and run MAF. I am in the process of getting MORE poop into my 5# bag.

Also, I found THESE adapters (catedral - rectangular) on the LSA FB Group. Notice the Notch in the injector's corner. The guy I got them from bought them used and didn't know who made them but that notch say that someone had a problem and addressed it.

NewAdapters_WithNotch (Medium).jpg

They also use the OEM gasket on the head side - vs the RTV on the Phenolic adapter. The RTV has been brought up as a weak link in the chain - maybe / maybe not. I like the gasket better.

OldAdapters_NoNotch_1.jpg

My next move is to pull the blower and swap the adapters - after I clean all that RTV off AGAIN! Also working on a wat to get the intake tube over the Rad using a 'performance' Air Bridge. I will put the MAF directly in front of the bridge after the filter. I want to get rid of the UGLEEE hole in my hood to clear the intake tube - and will do whatever it takes to make that happen

BlindSquirell - what do YOU think of the design of those plates?

Thanks all for the input and time... For the injector path renderings and the OEM Tune (AronC7) you made for me. I'm getting there...

[blindsquirrel]

The LSA injectors would spray onto the cathedral port head even if there were no adapter in the way. The head would need a notch in the upper right corner of the port, it's not the adapter's fault. Well, other than being so thick that raising the manifold vertically so far that it makes the issue worse.

Ultra Gray RTV is damn near bomb-proof, I don't use anything else. Gaskets or o-rings are only better if you're taking it apart once a week.

[blindsquirrel]

The best I have seen a MAF do is not make it run worse than without the MAF. Never seen one do better.

[JumboShrimp]

Thanks for that answer.
I'm still sing the Deka 60 Shorties. I guess they spray straight vs toward the plate? Maybe that's why that notch is machined into it?
Learning....

[SiriusC1024]

No they spray straight. Are you having problems with them? If so mind posting your file so I can double check the data for you?

[Alvin]

Those adapter plates are a problem. The people who say they run great.. well I wonder if they are the same type that say their car runs great when you hear them stalling, bogging, and blowing smoke everywhere.

I turn them away.

You can get by when the engine is warm but it still isn't right. When it is cold it will have bad tip in issues. Pop back though intake, etc. Quick throttle moves is where the majority of the problem will be.

[JumboShrimp]

No they spray straight. Are you having problems with them? If so mind posting your file so I can double check the data for you?

Thanks for the offer to look it over. Sorry for the late reply - I must not have this set to notify me of a reply.

I assume you want a Tune vs a log file. Here are 2, One is with the 'wrong' injector data but ran pretty good. Rev 40 fine fuel and spark adj.hpt

The other is after the Banish data got written in and it all went to crap. SO Rev 04D Bannish transient fuel experiment.hpt

I am waiting for a angle corrector so I can use an OTR intake. I have it mocked up and it'll work. There's a guy - Square Root Fabrication - that is 3D printing the part. Pretty amazing stuff and he does really nice work for the supercharger crowd.

Thanks again everyone!!

[JumboShrimp]

Well, I'm back. I got all my work done - new adapters, Hood intake clearance fixed, LS7 Card MAF in a 4" tube, Re-Plumbed the HX, Wrote Entire (The OEM file AAronC7 was kind enough to compile for me )

I Drove it for a while on the 3BAR custom OS version that ran but had the wrong injector data. Everything worked as planned.
Then.... Grew a set and wrote the OEM tune into the ECM. Ron, the tuner, modded the OEM file with ONLY correct MAP numbers and the injector data. The car will NOT start. He's done several revisions but it just blips and won't fire up.

Could one of you take a look and try to find out why? He's about ready to start drinking and we're getting nowhere fast - maybe a fresh set of eyes will catch something simple? It ran on the 3BAR so I know everything I did WAS working.

There are matching tune and log files - logs don't show much other than cranking and burping. I struggle with logging FP and AFR because of the way the gauges work during engine crank. I do have a switch on my 2nd Fuel Pump and forced it on during one of the logs - I could hear it but the log shows -18PSI.

Thanks for any help - really lost here and am reaching out.

[gtstorey]

Have you checked the basic of why it won't start? I assume you mean it will crank but doesn't start. Are you getting spark? Fuel? Too much Fuel?

[edcmat-l1]

Well, I'm back. I got all my work done - new adapters, Hood intake clearance fixed, LS7 Card MAF in a 4" tube, Re-Plumbed the HX, Wrote Entire (The OEM file AAronC7 was kind enough to compile for me )

I Drove it for a while on the 3BAR custom OS version that ran but had the wrong injector data. Everything worked as planned.
Then.... Grew a set and wrote the OEM tune into the ECM. Ron, the tuner, modded the OEM file with ONLY correct MAP numbers and the injector data. The car will NOT start. He's done several revisions but it just blips and won't fire up.

I don't get it. What was wrong with the file it ran on?

Have you posted both? The file it runs on and the one it doesn't?

[edcmat-l1]

Have you checked the basic of why it won't start? I assume you mean it will crank but doesn't start. Are you getting spark? Fuel? Too much Fuel?

I'm assuming by his post, it ran fine, they flashed it with something else, then it didn't.

OP correct me if I'm wrong.

PS there ain't a jumbo shrimp within 200 miles of central PA LOL

[gtstorey]

I'm assuming by his post, it ran fine, they flashed it with something else, then it didn't.

OP correct me if I'm wrong.

PS there ain't a jumbo shrimp within 200 miles of central PA LOL

I know, but it's been 3 months. And I hate the phrase "it won't start" without clarification of crank or no crank. But he does say the logs are cranking, which I missed.

And depending on how you read the post, he may have done other work at about the same time of the tune change.

[JumboShrimp]

Thanks for the replies. I wanted to run a MAF tune. The SD tune in it was good-ish but the injector data was incorrect. When the official Greg Banish data was loaded the thing took a Major Crap. It needed a complete Do-Over in the VE tables.

I did a bunch of stuff to get a MAF to fit in a LSA swapped C5 but when it was done I ran the SD tune for a while - while I grew the stones to 'Write Entire' and start over.

I am 100% sure I have fuel, spark & Air - in the SD tune - because it ran pretty strong. Unless the OEM file was whacked all that was done to it was add MAP #'s and the correct Injector table. I have no reason to think the OEM file given me by AAronC7 was anything but correct - I've looked at it and compared to repository files and they are the same (minor difference in fuel tank capacity - see earlier in the thread)

I'll include both here - the Stock 'Jumbo' file and the Custom OS 3BAR that ran prior to 'Write Entire' to replace it - just for the heck of it.

I think Ron will be looking at this as well - He wrote the 3BAR SD and modded the OEM so I can run a MAF tune.

Thanks again for any wisdom here - I am a total rookie but am learning and liking it.

[aaronc7]

The known working "3Bar-SD" file vs the A and B files posted above have significantly different startup airflows, idle airflow, ETC scalar, plus many more (I think many of these are just stock in the A and B files), I just stopped looking at that point. That's enough to make it not start easily or at all depending on the setup.

Let Ron build out the file based on the true stock tune file that I made and it should work fine.