should have done bushings not bearings

[biholliday]

if you have done a BTR trunion upgrade you might want to peek at your rockers soon and make sure they all look straight or take one off to check the wear on the bearings that you were trying to avoid the stock ones from doing to your engine releasing needles in the oil. My question is does the pick up tube have a screen on it ? and if so will the needle bearings fit through the screen or keep them from entering the oil pump? i found about 12 needles on top around the springs and none in the oil. gonna do a CHE bushing to all rockers and then push SEND. I think i did the cam at 50000 miles and now im at 91000 so the trunions held up for 40000 miles. last time i had it on the scanner it had 59lbs of oil pressure at idle

[JayRolla]

I dont see a tuning question?

[poulina]

OEM uses needle bearings for a reason. BTR sells quality components. Sounds like user error.

[Alvin]

You are probably ok.

Our oil container we dump oil for the shop has a screen. There are needle bearings in it constantly. It's unnerving. The pickup has a screen. If it gets past that it will go to the pump but I've never seen any damage to a pump that looked like that happened.

[TheMechanic]

I would say the bearings will never make it to the pump. Lot's of metal ends up in a pan through its life. You would think if it can pick up a solid piece like a needle bearing it could pick up all those flakes and smaller debris and filter it out. I have opened many a filter and always lots of small spec type metal and debris but never larger pieces unless it was a catastrophic failure. A hardened bearing like that I would think would break the gerotor pump. Long story short. If it ain't tickin' run it.

[biholliday]

Thank you sir thats what i was hoping to hear. But to the other resonders; user error? can you elaborate on your answer a little bit? how is it user error on a trunnion upgrade? ive been driving the car for 40000 miles

[SiriusC1024]

I had the same thing happen to a set of Comp's after 7k miles. The problem with those, and probably yours, was incorrect heat treatment. Doubt bearings made their way off the bottom of the pan, but the filings worn off the trunnions were all over the drain magnet. Pieces of broken bearing race came out with the oil. Switched to bronze bushings and it's been great.

OEM uses roller elements because they have less friction. That's the reason. BTR might make quality parts, but all needle bearing upgrade kits are a joke. Are the bearings bigger? Are there more rolling elements? No and no. So what kind of upgrade is that? More spring pressure and higher lift means the load has to be more evenly distributed so that the oil film doesn't break down.

[2xLS1]

CHE bushings that rotate in the rocker arm.

[edcmat-l1]

OEM uses roller elements because they have less friction. That's the reason. BTR might make quality parts, but all needle bearing upgrade kits are a joke. Are the bearings bigger? Are there more rolling elements? No and no. So what kind of upgrade is that? More spring pressure and higher lift means the load has to be more evenly distributed so that the oil film doesn't break down.

Why are they a joke? They serve a very specific purpose. And that is to get rid of the cage travel limiter when installing a higher lift cam. When installed correctly, caged needle bearings should be just as dependable as factory rocker arms. And for as bad a wrap as they get, there's 10s of millions of them out there with hundreds of thousands of miles on them without issue.


20240220_114550_b.jpg

[Cringer]

Why are they a joke? They serve a very specific purpose. And that is to get rid of the cage travel limiter when installing a higher lift cam. When installed correctly, caged needle bearings should be just as dependable as factory rocker arms. And for as bad a wrap as they get, there's 10s of millions of them out there with hundreds of thousands of miles on them without issue.


20240220_114550_b.jpg

The problem is the heat treatment (or whatever design/engineering) that goes into the trunnions themselves do not withstand the load from the needle rollers very well. At least this was my experience on the Comp Cams kit on a stock LS3 cam/springs. When I rebuilt the motor, the trunnions all showed SIGNIFICANT wear and fretting where the needles contact.

Additionally, the Comp Cams kit is terrible since the trunnion base (the part that gets bolted to the factory rocker stands) is machined to a smaller improper radius! This allows the rockers to wallow around on the stands since they are not fixed in position. So much for valve train stability.

To the OP, you should be fine. Many LS users have popped a rocker (OEM and aftermarket) and the bits either fall to the bottom of the pan and/or stay in the head. Under warranty, I believe the dealer replaces the rocker without so much as an oil change!

Go CHE and have peace of mind.

[edcmat-l1]

The problem is the heat treatment (or whatever design/engineering) that goes into the trunnions themselves do not withstand the load from the needle rollers very well. At least this was my experience on the Comp Cams kit on a stock LS3 cam/springs. When I rebuilt the motor, the trunnions all showed SIGNIFICANT wear and fretting where the needles contact.

Additionally, the Comp Cams kit is terrible since the trunnion base (the part that gets bolted to the factory rocker stands) is machined to a smaller improper radius! This allows the rockers to wallow around on the stands since they are not fixed in position. So much for valve train stability.

To the OP, you should be fine. Many LS users have popped a rocker (OEM and aftermarket) and the bits either fall to the bottom of the pan and/or stay in the head. Under warranty, I believe the dealer replaces the rocker without so much as an oil change!

Go CHE and have peace of mind.

Never seen any abnormal wear of trunnions either aftermarket or OE from the needle bearings.. I've done countless sets of rockers. I keep them and trunnion kits on the shelf. And it's been a very long time since I've used Comp trunnion kits. Several years at least if not a decade or more. Since the time when they were the only company to carry them.

[Cringer]

Never seen any abnormal wear of trunnions either aftermarket or OE from the needle bearings.. I've done countless sets of rockers. I keep them and trunnion kits on the shelf. And it's been a very long time since I've used Comp trunnion kits. Several years at least if not a decade or more. Since the time when they were the only company to carry them.

I can't speak to any other kits besides Comp and CHE.

However, from my experience I will never spend my money on a Comp product again.

On the CHE kit I did notice wear (nothing abnormal) on the bronze bushings and trunnion. I did use a nice micrometer and found .0004" (four tenths) of wear on the trunnion after 12k miles on a rowdy cam and springs.

[edcmat-l1]

I can't speak to any other kits besides Comp and CHE.

However, from my experience I will never spend my money on a Comp product again.

On the CHE kit I did notice wear (nothing abnormal) on the bronze bushings and trunnion. I did use a nice micrometer and found .0004" (four tenths) of wear on the trunnion after 12k miles on a rowdy cam and springs.

Yeah I'm not poo pooing bushings by any means. My only point is the needles work in millions of rockers.

As for wear I consistently see tip wear on higher mileage rockers. I rarely get one or a set that has spit out some needles and I can't remember ever seeing any trunnions ate up. I imagine you'd have to have some oil starvation for that to happen.

I do a fair amount of engines per year for not being an engine shop.

[biholliday]

thank you all for responding (even the person who said user error and jrolla for being a dick). just sayin the trunnions that i bought from brian tooley racing are not an upgrade in my opinion. they should be checked like every 10000 miles or so for excessive wear or else youll be fishing out needle bearings. Cringer i watch all of your videos and you are very knowledgeable( also in my opinion) and i appreciate the help along with you other senior tuners.

[blindsquirrel]

It is not possible to heat treat 4140 to a point it will withstand needle bearings running directly on it, this is the fatal flaw in most all of the 'upgrade' kits being sold.

[blindsquirrel]

Bushings plus splash-lube only is a Bad Idea. They wear pretty quickly. Diesel stuff that uses bushings and last forever are designed to use bushings from the start and have dedicated pressure-fed lube circuits.

[pannetron]

Sometimes it's out of control valve train harmonics and oscillations that hurt "innocent bystander" parts. Flexing pushrods and steep cam lobe ramps can wound the top end over time. Maybe poor geometry because of an aftermarket cam w/ a smaller base circle? It amazes me how often someone upgrades the cam, springs, rockers, lifters, but not pushrods.

[SiriusC1024]

Bushings plus splash-lube only is a Bad Idea. They wear pretty quickly. Diesel stuff that uses bushings and last forever are designed to use bushings from the start and have dedicated pressure-fed lube circuits.

Wrist pins are bronze bushings lubricated with splash.

[SiriusC1024]

Sometimes it's out of control valve train harmonics and oscillations that hurt "innocent bystander" parts. Flexing pushrods and steep cam lobe ramps can wound the top end over time. Maybe poor geometry because of an aftermarket cam w/ a smaller base circle? It amazes me how often someone upgrades the cam, springs, rockers, lifters, but not pushrods.

I run a Howard's GM hotcam (.525/.525 219/228 112+4), LS7 lifters, Manley 5/16 chromoly pushrods, PAC 1218 springs. Melling HPOP and 6350 rpm limit. It's stable. Those needle bearing trunnions belong in the trash.

[blindsquirrel]

Wrist pins are bronze bushings lubricated with splash.

Right, because the drip-drip-drip of oil metered up through the pushrods is splash lube exactly the same as the oil-everywhere constantly churned up inside the crankcase and slung off the crank's rod throws directly onto the underside of the piston is splash lube. I sure don't see any difference in those now that I think about it, thanks for pointing it out.