Any Idea why spark advance is so low on cold start up?

[Allen Vos]

For some reason I am expereicncing very low spark angle during a cold start up. It goes away once the vehicle is warmed up and returns to base idle setting of 18 degrees.

Here is a couple logs, cold start and one running at operating temp plus the tune.

24-03-03 09-51-55 Cold Start from only 31 degrees celcius.hpl
24-03-03 10-35-29 Hot Idling.hpl
Current Tune.hpt

I would like to get it back up to 18 degrees of timing as soon as possible after a cold start but I cant figure out for the life of me how to do that.

Is there something I can log to determine what Is pulling all that spark out?

I also read something about catalyst warm up pulling back timing while the engine warms up, but I do have catalyst over temp protection turned off.

I do have the Actual RPM following the Target RPM quite well so I know its not the Over and underspeed tables pulling spark.

Car runs quite well despite the low timing, just want to get it up a little higher than it is

[hjtrbo]

Low spark helps get the cats up to temp. Any exhaust mods?

[Allen Vos]

Low spark helps get the cats up to temp. Any exhaust mods?

I dont have cats on my setup. Yes. 1 7/8 long tubes and catless X-pipe with corsa cat back.

Its wierd as it changes as the car warms up. There has to be some kind of parameter or table that's holding timing back.

Is there a parameter to turn off the low spark to help the cats warm up?

I have catalyst overtemp under the fuel tab turned off

[blindsquirrel]

screenshot.03-03-2024 15.09.29.png

[blindsquirrel]

Your file also still has the Cat & Post O2 tests enabled. Ability to shut those off has been removed in current/recent versions of HPT.

What do you think is being gained by not having cats? Is it just pwning the Libs or whatever 12-year-old's logic at work?

[Allen Vos]

screenshot.03-03-2024 15.09.29.png

That's exactly what I am looking for, thank you so much for pointing that out.

I am using the Latest Beta Version of VCM Editor and it allowed me to zero out the catalyst heating timing tables.

So if its a catalyst warm up issue, the issue should be solved

I did a quick log again and I noticed up to 47 degrees Celsius of ECT the dynamic air flow is a wee bit higher than min idle air flow along with low spark advance.

at 47 degrees the dynamic air flow changes and reads slightly lower than min idle air flow.

The second this happens, the spark very quickly went back up to 18 degrees which is where the base idle spark is set too.

I will do another cold start log tomorrow once the car has cooled down.

[07GTS]

your adaptive idle spark it taking a heap out also because ur idle rpm is above commanded maby because there is too much air and it cant lower it till it warms up

[edcmat-l1]

your adaptive idle spark it taking a heap out also because ur idle rpm is above commanded maby because there is too much air and it cant lower it till it warms up

Because the BRAF isn't right. Which also caused the RPM surge in his other thread. Where he then modified the throttle follower to fix that. Cascading effect.

[Allen Vos]

your adaptive idle spark it taking a heap out also because ur idle rpm is above commanded maby because there is too much air and it cant lower it till it warms up

You are spot on my friend. There was another individual on here that has helped me to figure that out.

To be honest I caused this issue myself. The base running airflow is fine and dialed in at 10 g?s, however I was messing with the ECT multiplier and added 10 % min air flow from -40 to 44 degrees to try and fix a cold start idle surge.

I just didn't understand the relationship between min air flow and dynamic airflow and what it would do if not set correctly.

Now I learned the hard way lol

Is there anyone here who is able to explain the relationship between min air flow and dynamic air flow?

From what I can see, if dynamic air flow is slightly under min airflow, it will control timing.

When dynamic airflow is slightly above min air flow, adaptive idle pulls out a ton of timing, likely because it cant quite reach the target RPM?

I'm just being a fussy cunt here and trying to get every last little blip out of the car, but sometimes will cause my own issues

[Allen Vos]

Because the BRAF isn't right. Which also caused the RPM surge in his other thread. Where he then modified the throttle follower to fix that. Cascading effect.

This is why I no longer will take your advice seriously Edcmat.

BRAF is fine and has been set correctly for some time.

If you actually read the thread instead of coming on my post and spouting off, you would have read that I increased the ECT multiplier for BRAF in the cold startup areas and that's what caused the spark issue.

NOT THE THROTTLE FOLLOWER as you claimed.

I've had the throttle follower stock for sometime and just recently modified it a bit to match my cam's torque values and it runs fine.

But you wouldn't know that because you are the tuner that puts' everything back to stock!! LMAO!!!

I'm starting to think you don't know as much as you profess too and like to come on here and rattle people just for fun

[edcmat-l1]

BRAF isn't right. The multiplier table is modified. That's one of the ones I said you didn't need to modify. Between the modifier being changed (that's part of your BRAF) and the actual BRAF not being right, it caused you idle flare up that you then changed your throttle follower table to compensate for, another throttle that typically does not need changed.

I've tuned countless of your exact combo. I don't care if you want to listen to me or not. I'm just replying for future reader's sake. I'm not being ugly about it, I'm just telling you like it is.

[edcmat-l1]

But you wouldn't know that because you are the tuner that puts' everything back to stock!! LMAO!!!

I think this is important to address individually as it seems you're trying to blast me for leaving certain things stock.

First, as I've said many times in response to you, pertaining the GEN4 PCMs in general, if you dial in your base tables correctly there's surprisingly little else to do. That's the first thing.

Second, there's nothing wrong with changing a minimal amount of tables or parameters to achieve the driveability and operation you're looking for.

Third, you don't judge the ability of a tuner, or the quality of a tune by how many changes are made. Most of the time, as an experienced tuner, when I see a tune file with a bunch of shit changed, I know it's someone who has been chasing their tail.

I'll go on record and say there's a lot of shit I don't change that others do. I don't turn off COT. Does that mean I suck as a tuner or don't know what I'm doing?

I'm starting to think you don't know as much as you profess too and like to come on here and rattle people just for fun

Maybe you should read more of what I post. Maybe you should stop taking shit so personally.

[edcmat-l1]

I'm starting to think you don't know as much as you profess too and like to come on here and rattle people just for fun

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...T-102-102mm-TB

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...720#post770720

Why don't you read through both of those threads and tell me, 1; I don't know what I'm talking about and 2; I'm just here to rattle people. Those posts are just today. I've been here for 18 years now. You have some reading to do.

[07GTS]

You are spot on my friend. There was another individual on here that has helped me to figure that out.

To be honest I caused this issue myself. The base running airflow is fine and dialed in at 10 g?s, however I was messing with the ECT multiplier and added 10 % min air flow from -40 to 44 degrees to try and fix a cold start idle surge.

I just didn't understand the relationship between min air flow and dynamic airflow and what it would do if not set correctly.

Now I learned the hard way lol

Is there anyone here who is able to explain the relationship between min air flow and dynamic air flow?

From what I can see, if dynamic air flow is slightly under min airflow, it will control timing.

When dynamic airflow is slightly above min air flow, adaptive idle pulls out a ton of timing, likely because it cant quite reach the target RPM?

I'm just being a fussy cunt here and trying to get every last little blip out of the car, but sometimes will cause my own issues

its all part of the adaptive idle control, spark is taken out based on the error and as yours wouldnt lower then it just stays in the same error pulling spark and air until it can lower it, because the base running air was too high for the cold start it cant use airflow to lower as airflow is being held up so it only has spark, braf is just a floor so u dont want to sit on the floor u just want a bit of error each side so the adaptive can do there thing

[Allen Vos]

BRAF isn't right. The multiplier table is modified. That's one of the ones I said you didn't need to modify. Between the modifier being changed (that's part of your BRAF) and the actual BRAF not being right, it caused you idle flare up that you then changed your throttle follower table to compensate for, another throttle that typically does not need changed.

I've tuned countless of your exact combo. I don't care if you want to listen to me or not. I'm just replying for future reader's sake. I'm not being ugly about it, I'm just telling you like it is.

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah, Enough with the verbal diarrhea . Clearly you don't read my post, because what your claiming here is dead wrong.

BRAF is Min air flow. Min air flow has been set correctly on my car for quite sometime. My idle flare ups on cold start have nothing to do with the torque tables you are blabbing about. If you want to be technical, yes the multiplier is part of the BRAF equation and If you actually read my post you would see I changed it to get rid of the cold start surge and not the torque table as you are claiming. BTW, changing the torque table has never ever made the engine run worse for me.

The issue is that I went the wrong way and made the issue worse, due to not understanding its full function and lack of proper info in the thread I started.

You had full opportunity to give an explanation in my other post and you did not, except to blab about putting the tables to stock and then claiming I had a primary table out of whack, then you fail to provide any insight to my issue. Now your saying its ok to tweak a table here and there for drivability? What do you think I'm doing? Lol

There are quite a few individuals on here that are trying to learn about torque tuning and torque follower tables with some very good info. Then you come along and say "Put it back to stock" Well guess what bud. My car is not stock anymore so its not going to run the way it should with stock tables, hence the modifications.

Then you come on here after the fact trying to take credit for telling me what my issues and problems are. I don't give a rats ass if you've been on here for 18 years. Truth is you have a shit attitude and lack of patience for beginners on here and it shows. Your a condescending hypocrite and a bragger. No one needs that shit. Then you say don't take it personally?

Kind of hard not to when your the one talking shit and not being any help

In the end adjusting my ECT min air flow multiplier to take a bit of Min air flow out in the colder areas of the engine along with some massaging of the startup air flow table fixed the problem and eliminated the cold startup flare. So yeah, I'm throwing that in your face that you were wrong for everyone else to see that your trying to impress here. lol

I don't want your help whatsoever so again, just stay off my posts. There are enough people on here that are helpful that don't pull the crap you do.

[Allen Vos]

its all part of the adaptive idle control, spark is taken out based on the error and as yours wouldnt lower then it just stays in the same error pulling spark and air until it can lower it, because the base running air was too high for the cold start it cant use airflow to lower as airflow is being held up so it only has spark, braf is just a floor so u dont want to sit on the floor u just want a bit of error each side so the adaptive can do there thing

Thank you for that explanation kind sir. I made a mistake and added to the ECT min air multiplier when I should have subtracted it. So what I did was subtracted around 7% of the ECT multiplier from -40 up to 30 degrees and massaged the startup airflow a little bit and she starts beautifully

[edcmat-l1]

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah, Enough with the verbal diarrhea . Clearly you don't read my post, because what your claiming here is dead wrong.

BRAF is Min air flow. Min air flow has been set correctly on my car for quite sometime. My idle flare ups on cold start have nothing to do with the torque tables you are blabbing about. If you want to be technical, yes the multiplier is part of the BRAF equation and If you actually read my post you would see I changed it to get rid of the cold start surge and not the torque table as you are claiming. BTW, changing the torque table has never ever made the engine run worse for me.

The issue is that I went the wrong way and made the issue worse, due to not understanding its full function and lack of proper info in the thread I started.

You had full opportunity to give an explanation in my other post and you did not, except to blab about putting the tables to stock and then claiming I had a primary table out of whack, then you fail to provide any insight to my issue. Now your saying its ok to tweak a table here and there for drivability? What do you think I'm doing? Lol

There are quite a few individuals on here that are trying to learn about torque tuning and torque follower tables with some very good info. Then you come along and say "Put it back to stock" Well guess what bud. My car is not stock anymore so its not going to run the way it should with stock tables, hence the modifications.

Then you come on here after the fact trying to take credit for telling me what my issues and problems are. I don't give a rats ass if you've been on here for 18 years. Truth is you have a shit attitude and lack of patience for beginners on here and it shows. Your a condescending hypocrite and a bragger. No one needs that shit. Then you say don't take it personally?

Kind of hard not to when your the one talking shit and not being any help

In the end adjusting my ECT min air flow multiplier to take a bit of Min air flow out in the colder areas of the engine along with some massaging of the startup air flow table fixed the problem and eliminated the cold startup flare. So yeah, I'm throwing that in your face that you were wrong for everyone else to see that your trying to impress here. lol

I don't want your help whatsoever so again, just stay off my posts. There are enough people on here that are helpful that don't pull the crap you do.

I'm sorry I'm a little more direct than you prefer and I don't coddle you. You're like the musical student who doesn't practice with the metronome and gets pissed off when the teacher sends you home after 2 or 3 minutes of lesson time because, well, you haven't practiced with the metronome.

You really are trying to post like you know what you're talking about and you've tuned 1, that's single, car. You're turning out to be quite the jerk here. Not me, but you.

I've said from the beginning, especially with these controllers, after you dial in your base tables there's little else to do. At no point up until me posting this has your tune file been dialed in, base tables that is.

There's nothing here you're telling me that's new. There's nothing unique about your combo, or anything you'll be able to show that's different from what I know of the many other exact combos as yours that I've tuned.

But go ahead keep telling me what I don't know.

[gtstorey]

and you've tuned 1, that's single, car.

He's actually tuned less than 1 car, since he hasn't finished this one yet.

[Allen Vos]

I'm sorry I'm a little more direct than you prefer and I don't coddle you. You're like the musical student who doesn't practice with the metronome and gets pissed off when the teacher sends you home after 2 or 3 minutes of lesson time because, well, you haven't practiced with the metronome.

You really are trying to post like you know what you're talking about and you've tuned 1, that's single, car. You're turning out to be quite the jerk here. Not me, but you.

I've said from the beginning, especially with these controllers, after you dial in your base tables there's little else to do. At no point up until me posting this has your tune file been dialed in, base tables that is.

There's nothing here you're telling me that's new. There's nothing unique about your combo, or anything you'll be able to show that's different from what I know of the many other exact combos as yours that I've tuned.

But go ahead keep telling me what I don't know.

OMG!! lol you are so full of yourself. How long have you been a Narcissist???? lol

Again, I am trying to learn and you have given me bad information.

ENOUGH SAID!!

Your a liar, now go away. I have no interest in conversing with you anymore.

There are enough other people who have helped me out here that have tuned way less cars than you have claimed to have that got me farther than you have.

[pannetron]

He's actually tuned less than 1 car, since he hasn't finished this one yet.

+1