'05 CTS-V Dyno Results and Tune opinion

[BuiltLifestyl3]

Hey guys. Recently did a cam install on my 156k miles LS6 motor and finally got it dyno tuned. General consensus with other people in Arizona on Facebook claim this shop is the #1 LS tuning shop in the state. It made 396whp and 377wtq on a DynoJet. My main thing since the install is getting it to run and perform the way it should and it does just that. Pulls like a train and feels really good. Majority of the time though, taking off from a stop is a little wonky and I have a feeling it's timing-related. Like it cuts off alot of power and jumps a bit. Still trying to learn it and tame it.

-Tick Performance SNS 2 cam
-Stock intake tube w/ cone filter
-Pacesetter longtube headers
-Stainless Works 3" exhaust w/gutted cats

Stock everything else, including throttle body, intake manifold, SBE, Heads...
Motor has 156k miles.

What do y'all think of the tune? I've included a small log from this morning in 85 degree weather. Seems to be a little rich down low. I talked to them about it and they said they keep it between 0 to -5% (as we all know), but turned off the LTFTs because "otherwise it messes with open throttle calculations".DynoTune.hpt24-04-11 11-36-41.hpl

[Alvin]

This looks much much better than average for a paid tune. Power is reasonable especially for being in a CTSV

I can't vouch for everything because there is no standardized approach to this stuff but the basics look good.

It doesn't look rich "down low" A time or two it looked rich at WOT but that could be your wideband/wideband setup cause it didn't totally agree with your narrowbands.




Take this how you will.. I'd be pissed if I saw my work posted on a forum for the peanut gallery to take shots on.


I'd at least make the name anonymous.
If you have actual problems, or they aren't getting back to you, or whatever that is a different story.

[SiriusC1024]

It's a simple problem. The transition from idle spark table to base spark is abrupt, and you have a manual transmission.

- VE needs help
- Airflow>Dynamic>High RPM Disable should be 4000rpm.
- Idle is way too high.
- Fuel trims are pretty far off.
- LTFT's should be on. Don't let them bs you.

I think this tune needs work. In my opinion if someone is going to call themselves a professional then one should be doing work beyond reproach. If a hobbyist like myself can come in and, at a glance, say "Hey, this is fucked up." then you fucked up.

I'm not talking about you, Alvin. I've seen your work it's good. I'm talking in general. There are so many botched tunes from pro tuners that have been posted on here.

[5FDP]

Fun fact, he payed for the tune and has every right to post it online because he payed for it. Unless you lock your tunes, which isn't fair to the person paying for the tune, people should have no right to complain about it being posted online. Like Sirius said, if you're calling yourself a professional tuner you should be doing the job correctly and really not have a worry about much. There are far more people out there that have no idea what they are doing with tuning than those that actually do. You're always going to have work coming in. I aim what I said to nobody, I know the people on here that know way more than me and do superb work for their customers and I have nothing but respect towards them.

[BuiltLifestyl3]

It's a simple problem. The transition from idle spark table to base spark is abrupt, and you have a manual transmission.

- VE needs help
- Airflow>Dynamic>High RPM Disable should be 4000rpm.
- Idle is way too high.
- Fuel trims are pretty far off.
- LTFT's should be on. Don't let them bs you.

I think this tune needs work. In my opinion if someone is going to call themselves a professional then one should be doing work beyond reproach. If a hobbyist like myself can come in and, at a glance, say "Hey, this is fucked up." then you fucked up.

I'm not talking about you, Alvin. I've seen your work it's good. I'm talking in general. There are so many botched tunes from pro tuners that have been posted on here.

See, I figured someone would catch and mention all of this. Great points. Yeah it's a good tune, but feel like they left some on the table. It's a dyno tune. Short and to the point. Got it to run and perform like it should. But you and I both seem to believe it could've been a bit better and could be more efficient. It didn't cost an arm and a leg like some tuners are charging these days, but a street tune with someone like Goat Rope Garage would've been better. I knew this beforehand and went with it out of curiosity. Luckily I'm not totally naive about the tuning process and can still tweak some things if I must. I was hoping at least one person here would say, dude, they slacked a little bit...shame on them. So thank you for pointing all that out.

[SiriusC1024]

See here where RPM dips low? Look at the difference between MAF and DynAir. Incorrect VE the cause.
Dyn_MAF.png

The P0101 table has been adjusted to hide this. Idle has been raised to 925 because the difference will cause trouble down lower. Injection timing should be corrected for your cam.

This build would be better off running the SD OS.

[Alvin]

Fun fact, he payed for the tune and has every right to post it online because he payed for it. Unless you lock your tunes, which isn't fair to the person paying for the tune, people should have no right to complain about it being posted online. Like Sirius said, if you're calling yourself a professional tuner you should be doing the job correctly and really not have a worry about much. There are far more people out there that have no idea what they are doing with tuning than those that actually do. You're always going to have work coming in. I aim what I said to nobody, I know the people on here that know way more than me and do superb work for their customers and I have nothing but respect towards them.

"calling yourself a professional tuner you should be doing the job correctly " This is the issue.. There isn't a 100% correct way / standardized way of doing this. What is correct to me might not be correct for you. I'd like to think GM is doing professional tunes but hell I can pick 20 rwhp on most everything they make.. Does that make them unprofessional and me professional?


This is like paying someone to remodel your bathroom and immediately post to a handyman forum to "check the work" I want to remind you that there are more novice than experienced posting in here.

Well, I would have done my caulk beads differently
I wouldn't have used that color
The fixtures look like a old design
etc.

This is the same situation.

In this example I would have done it in speed density.
I wouldn't have locked the LTFT's in this application.

But those are just my opinions and they aren't necessarily right or wrong.. They are just different.

I find it rude to post right away especially without going back to the shop first. To me this is a fishing for negative comments about a shop's work. That to me looks much more reasonable than the average. That tells me right away the shop should have a chance to fix. That's my opinion as someone who does this. I'm not wrong for having that opinion.

There have been times on here where a post similar to this pops up (albeit the shop name not mentioned) and i'll say something along the lines "This looks like a mess, I'm sorry but you should find a different tuner" This is not one of those situations.

At the very least you should have removed the shop's name from your tune file. Poor taste IMHO.

[edcmat-l1]

I'm with Alvin on this. If OP had issues with the work done he should have given the shop a chance to make it right. Otherwise, it just looks like a chance for a bunch of people to pick apart their work.

[SiriusC1024]

Seems to be a little rich down low. I talked to them about it and they said they keep it between 0 to -5% (as we all know), but turned off the LTFTs because "otherwise it messes with open throttle calculations".

Sounds like he did then they tried to give him the runaround.

[BuiltLifestyl3]

Nothing about the tune I was given is a "problem", per say. I'm fully aware all tuning shops do things a little differently that to some might seem off and to others seem accurate. Some shops like to cut corners to produce a good number for their customer on the graph. So with that all in mind, it was time to put that to the test with the second tuner I've ever had work done with. I have the luxury of logging what's happening as I'm driving and to edit if I choose. I knew they could do alot better than I could to get the car to run and perform. I did my own tune before the cam install and I managed to get all my fuel trims in line and had no drivability problems. But the cam changed the game for me and felt it was too much R&D for me to handle and someone out there needed to help me "finish" the work. I really can't complain because I got what I was after and I can now enjoy the car. I'm not looking for a beef sesh on here because I wanted a simple opinion as to whether it seems it runs a little richer than I'm used to seeing and if it's typical to see that from your average dyno tuner. It seems there's big subjectivity here between two parties and I'm observing. When I called the lead tech there about the situation, as I said before, I was told it's fine. Though some people do seem to be a little arrogant with their work and I had a feeling I was talking to one of those people. I'm a man that avoids direct conflict the best I can. So does it really hurt to get a second opinion or two off a forum before trying again to take on a lion I just did business with? To collect and bring up some points to talk about that I wouldn't have been able to come up with myself? Thanks for your input guys.

[STAGEUP]

I just took a quick look. Tune doesn't look bad IMO. I always give vehicles that I tune a quick check up on the road after the dyno, before I call it good. I can't stand it when idle dips low when coming to a stop, or surges under cruise, and I am sure my customers don't like it either.

[edcmat-l1]

I'll comment now that the name is removed. To me it's barely average but it's not terrible by any means. The idle is way too high which usually means the person has difficulty getting the idle and return to idle behavior satisfactory at lower RPMs.

The trims could be tighter but I've seen worse in bone stock GM calibrations.

Long term trims on or off does not have anything to do with the tuner's ability. That's a preference thing. If the trims are tight enough there's no reason to have long term trims.

[SiriusC1024]

The changes I mentioned will make it behave a lot better. Do you need help with it?

[STAGEUP]

I agree with edcmatt, way too high of an idle for that cam. I would typically set that combo to 800-825 RPM.

[SiriusC1024]

Did anybody examine the log? Up to 12% rich fuel trims, high idle, dipping idle, bucking. That's not a matter of aesthetics or tuning preferences. Any reputable shop should know the importance of good VE for something like this. Instead it was roughed in and broadly interpolated.

Idk why you guys are defending this lazy work. Surely the tuner saw this stuff in the logs and on the dyno. They didn't correct it then, and they didn't correct it when the customer complained. A lot of tuners take advantage of the ignorance of the customer. In most cases they get away with it. No doubt driveability problems were blamed on the big cam. I find this take the money and run mentality morally reprehensible. It should be called out.

[STAGEUP]

I am in no way defending this tune. Could it be better? Of course. Any seasoned tuner would agree. I'm just not into slamming other tuners for their product.

[SiriusC1024]

I'll slam it all day, and I'll fix it for free.

[Alvin]

Did anybody examine the log? Up to 12% rich fuel trims, high idle, dipping idle, bucking. That's not a matter of aesthetics or tuning preferences. Any reputable shop should know the importance of good VE for something like this. Instead it was roughed in and broadly interpolated.

Idk why you guys are defending this lazy work. Surely the tuner saw this stuff in the logs and on the dyno. They didn't correct it then, and they didn't correct it when the customer complained. A lot of tuners take advantage of the ignorance of the customer. In most cases they get away with it. No doubt driveability problems were blamed on the big cam. I find this take the money and run mentality morally reprehensible. It should be called out.

You are likely going to take this as an attack. Please don't. I don't intend it to be. Perhaps you could look at it with a different point of view.


12% fuel trims... They are STFT. Could be better but a factory car would very easily be out further than that. They also will likely be different day to day. They could be better but no car is going to hold +/-5% on STFT.

The idle is a bit high for my taste.. But nothing crazy. Its 900 where the factory CTSV manual idle is 800. So he added 100rpm. Again.. like I said from my first post I don't vouch for everything. But to me this isn't crazy or anything.

The only dipping I saw is when he was leaving from a stop, on the throttle. Which to me indicates driver. It is a manual. Idle feed back control completely stops on a GEN 3 when you touch the gas or the car moves.

I'm not sure how you are seeing bucking.. I don't think the OP even complained of that.

The VE looks about like the right shape to me. No way to know with out failing the MAF and actually measuring it's error. But it is smooth (Are we looking at the same file?) BTW.. Look at a factory M6 CTSV VE table. It is a train wreck. a OEM VE table is absolute disaster. It's quite obvious someone has worked it. Again no way to know for sure without Please take the time to compare against a stock CTSV file. You'll see what I'm talking about.


Attached is a stock M6 CTSV file to compare too I got off the repository a few minutes ago.
Also attached is a file from a car who stopped by yesterday to see if we can do a better job than another local tuner. This is the type of BS scammy work I'm used to seeing from other professional tuners. I run into stuff like this DAILY via mailorder/remote tuning. This example is a heads cam 99 F auto.

1511413460 (1).hpt
read.hpt

We are not critiquing how a water pump was installed.. or how any by the book nut and bolt job has been done. There is going to be some nuance here. And that is my entire point. You will likely never find another tuner that comes up with the same numbers you do while tuning. There will be different strategies period.. full stop. We have two people who admit in this thread here that they aren't professionals slamming this tune. You have two other guys who do this full time as a job saying.. its not how I would do it but doesn't look bad.

I'll say one more thing.. and I've said it before. If you are having anything other than a bolt on car tuned and your tuner doesn't require you to leave the car for 3 days you are getting short changed on the tune.

[SiriusC1024]

I understand, Alvin. I checked a stock file last night when I went over the tune. I also compared another LS6 file out of concerns for MBT - 2003 Corvette Z06 M6. The way to tell if VE is wrong is by comparing MAF to DynAir as I showed earlier. I know there are all kinds of different approaches. The tune can be whatever it's the log that matters.

You two pros and this novice made the same observations on this tune about SD and idle. We can agree on that. OP complained it was wonky taking off from a stop as if power is cutting off then jumping up. VE and spark need adjusted.

The tuner wasn't interested in fixing this. That's the part that pisses me off. I'd agree with you guys if this wasn't the case.

[Alvin]

Dynamic airflow doesn?t equal VE airflow. You can log a gen 4 where VE airflow can be logged and see this.

You got the idea that the tuner left him cold. His replies do not give me that feeling. In fact in his last post he said something about avoiding conflict so maybe he was afraid to press it.


Regardless the big issue for me was putting the tuner on blast by name in the first thread before he edited it.