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Thread: New baby at home, lots of time on my hands. Constructive criticism welcomed.

  1. #1
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    New baby at home, lots of time on my hands. Constructive criticism welcomed.

    Like title states, I have a newborn at home and some time off work. Anybody care to take a look at my tune?

    6.2 L9H
    Borg Warner S475
    Circle D Trans
    3200 Stall
    E85 w/ GM sensor

    I currently have no real problems with how the truck runs. I'm just curious as to what everybody else thinks of the current tune. I started with an email tune a few years ago and have been fiddling around with things ever since. The last time I made any changes I was using Cringers methods.

    There is a decent pull in the log starting at 06:50.

    Thanks, gang.

    061524.hpl
    Rev. 20.1 - PE enable tuning.hpt

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner Cringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FetzerValve View Post
    Like title states, I have a newborn at home and some time off work. Anybody care to take a look at my tune?

    6.2 L9H
    Borg Warner S475
    Circle D Trans
    3200 Stall
    E85 w/ GM sensor

    I currently have no real problems with how the truck runs. I'm just curious as to what everybody else thinks of the current tune. I started with an email tune a few years ago and have been fiddling around with things ever since. The last time I made any changes I was using Cringers methods.

    There is a decent pull in the log starting at 06:50.

    Thanks, gang.

    061524.hpl
    Rev. 20.1 - PE enable tuning.hpt

    The MAF curve looks sketchy at 8550+ Hz (and overall trims are rather rich).
    VVE doesn't look right (and rather lean trims).
    You have VVT enabled, but you are not logging the intake cam angle so it is impossible to say how well VVE is dialed in for any condition.
    Timing table could use a bit of smoothing out too.
    You are boosted and don't have a wideband?
    Also you are not logging the Tq Mgmt Advance PID for better filtering in the scanner.
    Also what idle speed do you want?
    idle speed.jpg
    A standard approach will give you standard results.

    My Tuning Software:

    VVE Assistant [update for v1.5]
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    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FetzerValve View Post
    gang.
    grene!

    (sorry, Margaret Atwood reference, The Year of the Flood)
    (yes I read books.)

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    Advanced Tuner Cringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    (yes I read books.)
    You could be memorizing fuel injector data instead!
    A standard approach will give you standard results.

    My Tuning Software:

    VVE Assistant [update for v1.5]
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  5. #5
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    You could be memorizing fuel injector data instead!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlzFvOzl75Y

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner Cringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Said no married man ever!
    A standard approach will give you standard results.

    My Tuning Software:

    VVE Assistant [update for v1.5]
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    The MAF curve looks sketchy at 8550+ Hz (and overall trims are rather rich).
    VVE doesn't look right (and rather lean trims).
    You have VVT enabled, but you are not logging the intake cam angle so it is impossible to say how well VVE is dialed in for any condition.
    Timing table could use a bit of smoothing out too.
    You are boosted and don't have a wideband?
    Also you are not logging the Tq Mgmt Advance PID for better filtering in the scanner.
    Also what idle speed do you want?
    idle speed.jpg
    Very much appreciated! I've added the cam angle and tq mgmt advance PIDs. It doesn't surprise me that MAF, timing and VVE aren't great because I've made changes to all of them. I do indeed have a wideband. It's logging through the EGR. It's in the third section of my charts. The idle speed discrepancy is interesting. How does something like that happen and how is it affecting the way the truck behaves? I don't recall ever making changes to those tables.

    How do you recommend I proceed at this point? I've seen that lots of boosted people update to the 2 bar OS. Is that something that I should consider?

    Thanks again!

  8. #8
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    The Main spark tables need some work. As said already. VVE hasn't been touched and that is honestly a pretty crucial part of tuning a setup like this.
    Tuner at PCMofnc.com
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  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner JayRolla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FetzerValve View Post
    Very much appreciated! I've added the cam angle and tq mgmt advance PIDs. It doesn't surprise me that MAF, timing and VVE aren't great because I've made changes to all of them. I do indeed have a wideband. It's logging through the EGR. It's in the third section of my charts. The idle speed discrepancy is interesting. How does something like that happen and how is it affecting the way the truck behaves? I don't recall ever making changes to those tables.

    How do you recommend I proceed at this point? I've seen that lots of boosted people update to the 2 bar OS. Is that something that I should consider?

    Thanks again!
    You can see in this pic your MAF curve is somewhat funky around 9500hz and at the top. I would manually smooth this out. Then tune it using the old school way or one of the newer options. I would just disable LTFT and use STFT's. Use your STFT's to tune the lower HZ area and WBO2 for WOT upper HZ part of curve. Remember to multiply by half so you don't overshoot.

    Tune your VVE table via STFTs also at least up to your dynamic airflow disable and carry it out to the rest of the table. Once you do MAF and VVE your trims should be within 3%.

    Smooth out your timing tables. Easy way is minus 5* from entire table. Hit smooth all button on entire table few times. Then add that 5* back in across entire table.

    Do you ever run pump gas or just e85? Flex fuel timing is not being utilized but ive not tuned much turbo v8's so not sure if it can take more timing without a dyno to find MBT.

    This is just my opinion, but I would run a tad richer under boost. Again, just my opinion. Little richer will not cause much of a loss of power on e85.
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    Thanks for the input, everybody. I appreciate you all. The plan is to start with cleaning up the MAF curve. I'm using Cringer's MAF CL formula and filters without LTFTs. I'll collect some data and make some changes and report back.

    Do I still need to disable DFCO and Desoot when using the filters to collect data? Also, what's the consensus on turning off LTFTs and leaving them off? I've read that some folks like to do that.

    JayRolla, I do occasionally put some 91 in the tank, but only when E isn't available. I'm planning on playing around with the flex fuel timing tables once I get fueling dialed in.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by FetzerValve; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:48 PM. Reason: Answered JayRolla's question about fuel

  11. #11
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    Collected a short log on my drive home. I turned off LTFTs and Desoot for the log. I left DFCO on because I assumed the filter would take care of it. Worst error I saw was -6%. I ran the data through the MAF Assistant and updated tune with new MAF table. I'll collect more data tomorrow but I'd assume, seeing as how I'm only about 6% off currently, that the updated tune should get everything pretty close to +/-5%. Assuming the MAF error is acceptable, I'd move on the VVE tuning, correct? I'm planning on using DYNAIR CL formula but leaving out LTFTs.

    Thanks for everybody's input thus far. Keep the critiques coming!

    Rev. 21.1 - MAF Tuning.hpt
    Truck REV 21 Collect 2 .hpl

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    OK, I think I have the MAF cleaned up. After a couple iterations of the tune my logs are showing MAF error is +- a couple percent. Good enough for who it's for. For VVE tuning, can/should I use the same logs I already have from MAF tuning or should I collect new data with the updated MAF curve? I have desoot and LTFTs off.
    Thanks!

    Truck REV 21.1 Collect 4.hpl

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner Cringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FetzerValve View Post
    OK, I think I have the MAF cleaned up. After a couple iterations of the tune my logs are showing MAF error is +- a couple percent. Good enough for who it's for. For VVE tuning, can/should I use the same logs I already have from MAF tuning or should I collect new data with the updated MAF curve? I have desoot and LTFTs off.
    Thanks!

    Truck REV 21.1 Collect 4.hpl
    You can use the same log as a starting point assuming all the PIDs are there.
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-the-Same-Time
    A standard approach will give you standard results.

    My Tuning Software:

    VVE Assistant [update for v1.5]
    MAF Assistant
    EOIT Assistant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    You can use the same log as a starting point assuming all the PIDs are there.
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...-the-Same-Time
    I'm pretty certain I have everything because my VVE graphs are populating with data. The only thing I changed from your formulas was to remove LTFT. I'll run the last MAF tuning log through the VVE Assistant and see what it spits out.

    Thanks!

  15. #15
    Advanced Tuner Cringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FetzerValve View Post
    I'm pretty certain I have everything because my VVE graphs are populating with data. The only thing I changed from your formulas was to remove LTFT. I'll run the last MAF tuning log through the VVE Assistant and see what it spits out.

    Thanks!
    Your LTFT may be disabled, but they appear in the log and are reporting as 0%. Therefore you can use the formulas with LTFT (this is what I do). Only use the STFT ones if LTFT are not recorded in the log.

    Tuning VVE with VVT is not straight forward. Please do NOT use my formulas (or anyone else's) and just copy paste special, that is not going to work. You have to filter using the intake cam angle and then tune for the parked position and retarded cam positions separately. So really you are tuning it in two different ways. And as you tune the parked position, you are also changing the retarded position since the airflow values are cumulative. I suggest disabling VVT and tuning the parked cam position to establish your base VVE airflow. Then enable VVT and tune for the max rotation angle (and spot check a few angles in between).
    A standard approach will give you standard results.

    My Tuning Software:

    VVE Assistant [update for v1.5]
    MAF Assistant
    EOIT Assistant

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    Your LTFT may be disabled, but they appear in the log and are reporting as 0%. Therefore you can use the formulas with LTFT (this is what I do). Only use the STFT ones if LTFT are not recorded in the log.

    Tuning VVE with VVT is not straight forward. Please do NOT use my formulas (or anyone else's) and just copy paste special, that is not going to work. You have to filter using the intake cam angle and then tune for the parked position and retarded cam positions separately. So really you are tuning it in two different ways. And as you tune the parked position, you are also changing the retarded position since the airflow values are cumulative. I suggest disabling VVT and tuning the parked cam position to establish your base VVE airflow. Then enable VVT and tune for the max rotation angle (and spot check a few angles in between).
    Now I'm confused. Do I "park" the cam in the tune or do I just filter out data that isn't from 0* cam angle? I was under the impression that the basic and pro mode in VVE 1.5 would get my variable cam dialed in.

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner Cringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FetzerValve View Post
    Now I'm confused. Do I "park" the cam in the tune or do I just filter out data that isn't from 0* cam angle? I was under the impression that the basic and pro mode in VVE 1.5 would get my variable cam dialed in.
    The tool won't do the work for you. If it were my car, I would disable VVT by setting [ECM] 277 - Number of Variable Camshafts to NONE. Then drive and log and establish the base VVE model. Repeat as needed until you get the correct shape and fuel trims dialed in. Then go back and set the cam setting to ONE. Now you can filter and tune for when the cam is retarded.

    The airflow model is:
    Base VVE (cam parked) + VVT VVE (cam retarded) = Final Airflow

    So if you change the base airflow and the VVT airflow at the same time it will most likely result in too much air since they are layered. Think of it like a house...the first floor is the base VVE, if you change the wall height from 8ft tall to 10ft tall, that raises the second floor of the house 2 feet higher even though the walls of the second floor never changed. In other words, if you make cam parked VVE richer, you also make VVT cam retarded richer as well.

    So you gotta separate them to do it properly. Not everyone does it this way and that is sloppy if you ask me. I made this video to explain the math model and you can see how the airflows are additive (you can ignore the exhaust cam stuff for your application obviously).
    https://youtu.be/pZ7i9c0sCN8
    A standard approach will give you standard results.

    My Tuning Software:

    VVE Assistant [update for v1.5]
    MAF Assistant
    EOIT Assistant

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringer View Post
    The tool won't do the work for you. If it were my car, I would disable VVT by setting [ECM] 277 - Number of Variable Camshafts to NONE. Then drive and log and establish the base VVE model. Repeat as needed until you get the correct shape and fuel trims dialed in. Then go back and set the cam setting to ONE. Now you can filter and tune for when the cam is retarded.

    The airflow model is:
    Base VVE (cam parked) + VVT VVE (cam retarded) = Final Airflow

    So if you change the base airflow and the VVT airflow at the same time it will most likely result in too much air since they are layered. Think of it like a house...the first floor is the base VVE, if you change the wall height from 8ft tall to 10ft tall, that raises the second floor of the house 2 feet higher even though the walls of the second floor never changed. In other words, if you make cam parked VVE richer, you also make VVT cam retarded richer as well.

    So you gotta separate them to do it properly. Not everyone does it this way and that is sloppy if you ask me. I made this video to explain the math model and you can see how the airflows are additive (you can ignore the exhaust cam stuff for your application obviously).
    https://youtu.be/pZ7i9c0sCN8
    Ok, that makes sense. I appreciate you taking a moment to explain that to me. Just to clarify, if I set [ECM]277 to zero, I can log as usual and plug the collected data into VVE 1.5 to make my changes to base airflow, correct?

    I'll do my own research, but is there any problem with just leaving the cam parked at full advance? I've read that the commanded retard in lower rpms is simply for emissions and has nothing to do with making power. Just curious what your opinion on the matter is.

  19. #19
    Senior Tuner Lakegoat's Avatar
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    FETZER---Set 277 to NONE, not zero. that is not a choice
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  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner Cringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FetzerValve View Post
    Ok, that makes sense. I appreciate you taking a moment to explain that to me. Just to clarify, if I set [ECM]277 to zero, I can log as usual and plug the collected data into VVE 1.5 to make my changes to base airflow, correct?

    I'll do my own research, but is there any problem with just leaving the cam parked at full advance? I've read that the commanded retard in lower rpms is simply for emissions and has nothing to do with making power. Just curious what your opinion on the matter is.
    FYI current version is 1.6. No changes to the core essentials though.

    You can leave it parked if you want, but it should make more power with the VVT system enabled. Not sure on the emissions part...I can see that is also true since it moves the valve overlap to later in the piston's stroke. BTR does make VVT cams and they supply the tuning info for it and I have heard other tuner's test it and found that the BTR specs are spot on for max power. So while I do not have first hand experience here, I would say to not disable it permanently.


    Quote Originally Posted by BTR website example 1
    https://briantooleyracing.com/btr-ca...892538136.html

    This cam has nearly identical specs to our very popular LS3 Stage 2 cam. However, this cam has 3 degrees more advance for increased low end torque. Since the timing on this cam can be retarded via the VVT mechanism, it will make the same or better peak power than our non-VVT Stage 2 cam to give you the best of both worlds. Uses GM actuator 12606358 used in some 2008 and all 2009 and newer engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by BTR website example 2
    Here is an example Gen5 cam, where they are specifying the WOT cam angle. I do not think BTR is concerned with emissions.

    BTR cam.jpg
    A standard approach will give you standard results.

    My Tuning Software:

    VVE Assistant [update for v1.5]
    MAF Assistant
    EOIT Assistant