VTT adjustment after going FI - need help

[Roland_Price]

Yes, just make sure the VE is as close as you can correctly get it.

I had a belt slippage issue when migrating to 3.0" pulley and after fixing it I'm redoing the VE and MAF now and will be posting the final tune draft in a day or two. Meanwhile I'm having a weird issue - something is interfering with the commanded EQ ratio for the open loop and I'm getting 1.050 or 0.955 sometimes. I checked the IVT vs Load tables in OpenLoop and it seems that these are not the issue. I never had this before, can you please advise where to look for it?

Also on the recent tunes I have my Max Tq limited to 200-something Nm, but this also never happened before. Max Tq was always around 1-3% lower than the Peak Tq. Could it be because of the VT tables?

I've attached the log with these issues here:

2.hpl

[GHuggins]

All that started after swapping pulleys or while trying to dial in the VE? If it was after those torque tables then put them back like they were. Again, I only got part of them done and the VE wasn't right, so no telling there. Usually on the V8's that'll happen because of some sort of torque control kicking in...

I looked at the log - I didn't see the eq command being off unless I looked at the wrong areas. I did notice that you're idling with negative ignition timing now indicating the VE or tm is off. Predicted command torque is usually tied to the dd tables, which again ties into the VE and torque models... I would go back to stock on the tm until your VE is corrected.

[Roland_Price]

All that started after swapping pulleys or while trying to dial in the VE? If it was after those torque tables then put them back like they were. Again, I only got part of them done and the VE wasn't right, so no telling there. Usually on the V8's that'll happen because of some sort of torque control kicking in...

I looked at the log - I didn't see the eq command being off unless I looked at the wrong areas. I did notice that you're idling with negative ignition timing now indicating the VE or tm is off. Predicted command torque is usually tied to the dd tables, which again ties into the VE and torque models... I would go back to stock on the tm until your VE is corrected.

Yeah, I guess it's all tied to the VT which is tied to VE - I dialed in the VE for 0/0 int/ex cams and MAF, I've attached them along with the final draft tune. Judging from logs the torque is way off - I also went to 3.73 differential (did the gear correction) and I can't spot the difference because of the trans kicking and the car falling flat mid pull - the engine revs, but the acceleration is very poor.

I guess it started after my own first VT iteration way back and it got progressively worse now, my bet is on the garbage VE multiplied by the VT tweaks.

Can you please do your magic on the VT tables? Thank you

Camaro_v45_VE_MAF.hpt
1.hpl
2.hpl
3.hpl

[GHuggins]

Is the VE dialed in both with the cam"s" locked at 0 and for movement? In other words if I put the exhaust at (-8) and the intake at (8) is the VE table going to stay right as far as fueling goes? It takes me a few hours to rework the map models, so it needs to be as right as possible before hand and I don't see where the moving cam VE models have been touched, so either they're keeping fueling right, which is possible or that part was skipped

Are you only wanting the 0 positions corrected?

You have to use Daniel's VE tool to dial those items in. I suggest downloading his latest version to do this even if it is a little more sensitive to use...

[Roland_Price]

Is the VE dialed in both with the cam"s" locked at 0 and for movement? In other words if I put the exhaust at (-8) and the intake at (8) is the VE table going to stay right as far as fueling goes? It takes me a few hours to rework the map models, so it needs to be as right as possible before hand and I don't see where the moving cam VE models have been touched, so either they're keeping fueling right, which is possible or that part was skipped

Are you only wanting the 0 positions corrected?

You have to use Daniel's VE tool to dial those items in. I suggest downloading his latest version to do this even if it is a little more sensitive to use...

Yes, I've dialed in only the 0/0 table and changed one of the VT table angles to 0 so the model will fit right in. I want to keep it as iterative as possible to take as little of your time as I can. So for now I need to do 0/0 only both for MAP and Airmass and correct the DD tables as well (they seem to be not so good either and I'm looking in the the online tool one of the guys have posted here). Then if the results are good proceed with the angles. I've locked both cams for now and thinking of leaving them this way if there will be no significant power and torque losses

I've tried his MAF Assistant and it works great. I tried getting into VVE Assistant now but I didn't get the benefit of using it, so I did VE the old-fashioned way. But I will give it one more shot for sure

[GHuggins]

You'll need to see where your torque and idle timing are at, but hopefully this will have you somewhat close. You'll need about a 30 min driving log with lots of idle and stops and goes to dial in the dd. Adjust the airmass model to get your timing and torque back right at idle.

[Roland_Price]

You'll need to see where your torque and idle timing are at, but hopefully this will have you somewhat close. You'll need about a 30 min driving log with lots of idle and stops and goes to dial in the dd. Adjust the airmass model to get your timing and torque back right at idle.

Thanks! I did a quick log on my way home. So far I can see that predicted Tq is still off. Maybe I'm logging it wrong? I'll be doing more logs tomorrow and over the weekend, if you don't mind I'll post them here for a revision.

GHuggins_1.hpl

[GHuggins]

See if it'll let you load and log these channels for starters.

Somewhat of the same log with this one. I'll get idle torque pretty close for you and do the first revision on the DD then you should be good to take over from there.

To load the channels - download - show in folder - right click - depending on windows version you may need to click on show more options - copy - open scanner - open recent channel config - open config - again, depending on windows version you may need to click on show more options - paste and click on

[Roland_Price]

See if it'll let you load and log these channels for starters.

Somewhat of the same log with this one. I'll get idle torque pretty close for you and do the first revision on the DD then you should be good to take over from there.

To load the channels - download - show in folder - right click - depending on windows version you may need to click on show more options - copy - open scanner - open recent channel config - open config - again, depending on windows version you may need to click on show more options - paste and click on

I tried this one and got some logs, but I think my trans is busted. After doing some logs I tried a WOT pull in Tour mode on my way home and I got the same result I had 2-3 times prior - when trying to shift the car launches back, then forward, back and forward again. It seems that the difference in Tq between what car sees and the actual one is way more on the top end. Unfortunately I didn't have the Scanner turned on so no log for this. All the previous WOT pulls I did in Sport mode for which I have disabled the TM and added some offset pressure for the Tq in trans tables. In Sport mode on 3000+ RPM it shifts a bit harsh-ish, but at least it shifts (the stuff in Tour mode can not be called shifting by any means). Now my TC has a lot of slippage when the desired slip is set to 0 and I can feel that the car is a bit sluggish and shifting harder during regular driving. Though sometimes it locks in a normal way, with 5-10 RPM of slip which is strange. Sooo... I will be replacing my TC with the upgraded one that Tracey Lewis is selling and praying to everyone who listens that the rest of the trans is not totally screwed.

Meanwhile, as I wait I might as well do some logs with the next version. The current one still has predicted Tq and Engine Tq off by 40-50% and Max Tq is less than half of the Peak Tq. I did a couple of utility changes in the fans and some aux stuff and didn't touch the engine part, please use the one here:

Camaro_v45_VE_MAF-3.hpt
1.hpl
2.hpl
3.hpl
4.hpl

[GHuggins]

That really sounds like torque management as far as what the trans is doing to me. I assume the trans shifted wonky with the stock torque model too, especially since I didn't change the model much? Idle torque and control look really good now. You need to make sure you're setting the base temp at time of flashing as your VE is changing in your logs quite a bit even with me trying to chase it around. Other than that. I only did a VE and DD correction in this one for you. You should be able to take it from here, especially if you know the hp or torque it should be putting down. If you do then you can use that to shape the torque model off idle.

[Roland_Price]

That really sounds like torque management as far as what the trans is doing to me. I assume the trans shifted wonky with the stock torque model too, especially since I didn't change the model much? Idle torque and control look really good now. You need to make sure you're setting the base temp at time of flashing as your VE is changing in your logs quite a bit even with me trying to chase it around. Other than that. I only did a VE and DD correction in this one for you. You should be able to take it from here, especially if you know the hp or torque it should be putting down. If you do then you can use that to shape the torque model off idle.

That's the case - I don't know HP to Tq it should be putting down Can you please advise on a way how to tune these tables if I have no access to the dyno (if there is a one)? You're right, the car shifted this badly with the stock tables as well, that's why I started adjusting them in the first place - it's unsafe to drive now in Tour mode

As for the latest file - thanks, I will give a try tomorrow. What do you mean by setting the base temp? It's getting colder here by the days so maybe that's the reason the VE could be off? And one more thing - I keep getting the "MAF failed" in one of your parameters in logs, after some time instead the "No fail", although the MAF readings seem to be fine. Could it be something with the voltage on the sensor itself?

[GHuggins]

That could be a lot of your problem. You can fail it to see if it drives differently. I honestly didn't look through the logs in detail. You may have a bad MAF, maf connection or whatever relating to it. You need to see what code is being set after it fails. If it's a 103 code then it's a limit setting. Others should be circuit related for the most part. With the added blower you're probably hitting the high limit and that needs to be raised under diag. I haven't looked at any of those settings to know. There's a map/maf correlation code setting too that airmass will need to be increased for or just completely disable them.

Base temp is under the speed density tab - at the time of flashing this needs to be set to your ambient air temp or iat - just whichever of the two is reading the coldest. Then dial your VE in with that staying correct.

I don't think your torque model is the problem, so I wouldn't mess with it for the shifting. It's a different torque limit such as the DD or a setting in the trans itself. in other words something that will try to limit throttle and fuel. It should say torque source in those channels and you can add more to them to see in more detail what's going on where it's taking place. Now that you're logging the correct stuff you can use Michael's DD editor to correct the DD table. i find peppy or aggressive to work the best since he changed it last.

[Roland_Price]

That could be a lot of your problem. You can fail it to see if it drives differently. I honestly didn't look through the logs in detail. You may have a bad MAF, maf connection or whatever relating to it. You need to see what code is being set after it fails. If it's a 103 code then it's a limit setting. Others should be circuit related for the most part. With the added blower you're probably hitting the high limit and that needs to be raised under diag. I haven't looked at any of those settings to know. There's a map/maf correlation code setting too that airmass will need to be increased for or just completely disable them.

Base temp is under the speed density tab - at the time of flashing this needs to be set to your ambient air temp or iat - just whichever of the two is reading the coldest. Then dial your VE in with that staying correct.

I don't think your torque model is the problem, so I wouldn't mess with it for the shifting. It's a different torque limit such as the DD or a setting in the trans itself. in other words something that will try to limit throttle and fuel. It should say torque source in those channels and you can add more to them to see in more detail what's going on where it's taking place. Now that you're logging the correct stuff you can use Michael's DD editor to correct the DD table. i find peppy or aggressive to work the best since he changed it last.

Thanks! I will investigate and see what comes up

[Roland_Price]

That could be a lot of your problem. You can fail it to see if it drives differently. I honestly didn't look through the logs in detail. You may have a bad MAF, maf connection or whatever relating to it. You need to see what code is being set after it fails. If it's a 103 code then it's a limit setting. Others should be circuit related for the most part. With the added blower you're probably hitting the high limit and that needs to be raised under diag. I haven't looked at any of those settings to know. There's a map/maf correlation code setting too that airmass will need to be increased for or just completely disable them.

Base temp is under the speed density tab - at the time of flashing this needs to be set to your ambient air temp or iat - just whichever of the two is reading the coldest. Then dial your VE in with that staying correct.

I don't think your torque model is the problem, so I wouldn't mess with it for the shifting. It's a different torque limit such as the DD or a setting in the trans itself. in other words something that will try to limit throttle and fuel. It should say torque source in those channels and you can add more to them to see in more detail what's going on where it's taking place. Now that you're logging the correct stuff you can use Michael's DD editor to correct the DD table. i find peppy or aggressive to work the best since he changed it last.

Something is very wrong with the car, it's literally undriveable on more than 25-30% TPS now. The VE and MAF is nearly perfect, within 2% and 1%. But the car's acceleration curve is erratic and the shifts are terrible. Can you please advise what can cause the predicted and actual torque to be 80% off like on the screen? Could it be the DD?

Scanner1.png

[GHuggins]

Part of that's DD, then part of it is where you don't have access to your max settings for the torque model. In these cals there is a max map setting that controls how high into the torque model the ecm will read. It's almost always set at 150kpa from the factory, so anything over that and they'll usually start trying to pull torque and timing, but not until around the 170 to 175 kpa range, which yours is over. At least that's what I've been seeing on the V8's. Try using Michael's DD tool a few times to see if it smooths out any at all then you can try working it by hand such as it's way too high for that tps percent.

[Roland_Price]

Part of that's DD, then part of it is where you don't have access to your max settings for the torque model. In these cals there is a max map setting that controls how high into the torque model the ecm will read. It's almost always set at 150kpa from the factory, so anything over that and they'll usually start trying to pull torque and timing, but not until around the 170 to 175 kpa range, which yours is over. At least that's what I've been seeing on the V8's. Try using Michael's DD tool a few times to see if it smooths out any at all then you can try working it by hand such as it's way too high for that tps percent.

I'm not sure I got it right - you mean there is no way I can disable the max torque limiter in the VT tables?

I compared some points from that log above with the current VT table and they are off at least 20%. Maybe I'm reading it wrong? Engine Torque [Sensor] - is it the "real" torque that is being delivered at the moment and is calculated from the dynamic aiflow formula? Predicted Engine Torque Cmd - is it the one that is being requested with the DD table? If yes than what is Immediate Engine Torque Cmd in that case? Either I'm missing something crucial here or I need to bump up my VT tables significantly

[GHuggins]

You can try bumping it up, but I already did that a small amount for you while trying to keep the numbers realistic. You also need to keep the torque the same"ish" for the given map and airmass readings. I honestly don't think that's your issue. Will could get into your OS and change that max map reference for the airmass tables. Just tell him to set the one that's normally 150 to it's maximum. He usually doesn't charge much for doing that kind of stuff, but that's between he and you. The airmass one is the only one that needs to be raised. The map one has to stay at the factory 99.6kpa setting. FWIW, I'm referring to these.

Max Map.jpg

[Roland_Price]

You can try bumping it up, but I already did that a small amount for you while trying to keep the numbers realistic. You also need to keep the torque the same"ish" for the given map and airmass readings. I honestly don't think that's your issue. Will could get into your OS and change that max map reference for the airmass tables. Just tell him to set the one that's normally 150 to it's maximum. He usually doesn't charge much for doing that kind of stuff, but that's between he and you. The airmass one is the only one that needs to be raised. The map one has to stay at the factory 99.6kpa setting. FWIW, I'm referring to these.

Max Map.jpg

Yeah, I don't have these in my tune. Can you please forward Will's contact? I don't know him so far

Also can you please shed some light on the parameters I mentioned above? Or drop a link to the thread where the whole VT thing has a detailed explanation. I haven't found any distinct answer and I think I was searching for the wrong stuff. Thank you

UPDATE: HPT support told me that they can add this, but they need a file with these present. Can you please share one?

[GHuggins]

Stock truck file with the settings. Log snippet from a pretty much stock vette you can use for comparison sake.

[Roland_Price]

Stock truck file with the settings. Log snippet from a pretty much stock vette you can use for comparison sake.

Thanks! By any chance do you have a pre- and post-FI tune of any 5 gen car? It would be great if I could see the scale of VT adjustments, maybe I'm digging in a wrong direction