No Boost/ Lightswitch Whipple Wars

[skyboy666]

Hi Guys,
Durango Tow N Go 5.7ci
Heads/Cam/Whipple Gen.5

Lightswitch effect since day one. in the attached tune, Boost does not come in until 115-120kpa Map.
When it comes on, its at 5psi already and in dramatic fashion. my KOEO map is 122kpa with the Hellcat 3bar.

I have cured the lightswitch effect by adjusting the map to read 101-102 KOEO, HOWEVER, The fueling is a bit of a mess (super high LTFT). After fixing the fueling, with my remote tuner, its back to lightswitch time.
I know this Durango T&G OS is not great, as I'm on my 23rd revision of a tune, But I have found the happy place(with changed map), then it was gone soo quickly.

The tune Attached is Rev.22. which has the original 3bar Hellcat map setting.
I'm just trying to find the happy place again, Where the boost is there when you press the pedal, not waiting behind a curtain to attack you and your family!
The attached log file are 2 very short, however, there isnt any positive boost during that short run

[LilSick]

after your editing it reads: The attached log file are 2 very short, however, there isnt any positive boost during that short run

no boost?

maybe your whipple has shot craps

failure rate is very high for the 3L

satara now offers a new front cover and a larger rotor shaft

bigger bearings too

[skyboy666]

Yes, both of those short logs, boost does not occur. it's definitely not the blower. Fiddling with the map values have made the throttle and boost transition perfect, But then the fueling is off. Correct the fueling and...no linear engagement of the blower again. Map, Baro...nothing reads correct on this OS at KOEO? It's downright maddening

[LilSick]

check out a stand alone

something with a throttle cable maybe?

[HaasExp]

Your MAP sensor characteristics for the Mopar 3 bar should be:

MAP Sensor Linear: 61.05 kPa
MAP Sensor Offset: 7.0 kPa
MAP Sensor Offset: 0.1001 V

Definitely should not be fiddling with the MAP values to try and cure any other issues otherwise everything else will be out for the fueling and airflow models.
Check out this post regarding throttle response under boost.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...nse-with-a-S-C

I assume you just have a simple vacuum operated bypass valve. If so, does it have a restrictor in the hose?

[Stoopalini]

Hi Guys,
Durango Tow N Go 5.7ci
Heads/Cam/Whipple Gen.5

Lightswitch effect since day one. in the attached tune, Boost does not come in until 115-120kpa Map.
When it comes on, its at 5psi already and in dramatic fashion. my KOEO map is 122kpa with the Hellcat 3bar.

I have cured the lightswitch effect by adjusting the map to read 101-102 KOEO, HOWEVER, The fueling is a bit of a mess (super high LTFT). After fixing the fueling, with my remote tuner, its back to lightswitch time.
I know this Durango T&G OS is not great, as I'm on my 23rd revision of a tune, But I have found the happy place(with changed map), then it was gone soo quickly.

The tune Attached is Rev.22. which has the original 3bar Hellcat map setting.
I'm just trying to find the happy place again, Where the boost is there when you press the pedal, not waiting behind a curtain to attack you and your family!
The attached log file are 2 very short, however, there isnt any positive boost during that short run

The MAP sensor characteristic fields are for telling the PCM what sensor you are using, so you enter the proper values based on the specifications of the sensor being used.

A MAP sensor outputs a voltage, which directly relates to the pressure it is measuring. When you enter MAP characterization data into the PCM, you are telling the PCM how to interpret the voltage and convert it to a pressure reading. The MAP characteristic data is not subjective, and doesn't need to be tweaked/tuned .. but should be set based on the specs of the sensor you have.

Did you read through the replies in your previous thread: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...r-VE-tampering

For throttle feel, Have you tried tweaking the Throttlebody Airflow Model table (35035) along with the Large (44387) and Small range (44388) tables?

But before doing that, the thing I would be addressing is the fueling and knock retard. And also ... your IAT is reading a fixed value of -40*F. Did you disconnect the IAT sensor?

BTW: I also have a Durango R/T Tow N Go, so I understand the challenges with this OS. But tweaking the MAP sensor characteristic data to try and get KOEO MAP to read Baro, isn't going to help you here.

[skyboy666]

Message:

Man, I?ve been chasing that IAT. Plugged in. But the reading comes from TMAP no?

It recently came apparent, under the proper spec MAP settings, that I wouldn?t go into any boost until approximately 120 kPa. And obviously the baro is off on these also. I conjured up this hypothesis diving into Hemituna?s Whippled Jeep file. I found his MAP settings odd. They don?t match with any that I could find on a Hemi, possibly GM. I had wondered if he adjusted them?

First I need to figure out this IAT issue because it?s causing some shifting issues and most likely fueling.

Smooth boost would be soo nice for long rides. Cruise control w/o getting into boost!

[Stoopalini]

The TMAP sensor is a combined sensor, with both a MAP and a temperature sensor inside. The wire harness then connects the 4 pin side to the TMAP sensor itself, then the side of the harness with 3 pin connector goes to the factory MAP connection, and the connector with one pin goes to the factory IAT connector.

MAP-IAT_Wiring.jpg

Sometimes these pins get loose, so check the harness closely. Also be sure the singe pin going to the IAT connector is in the right slot. It should be if it was previously working.

In terms of the MAP reading, what channel are you looking at? As I explained in your other post, I log several MAP channels and some do read higher than real manifold absolute pressure. When you say you don't get boost until 120 kPa, anything over baro is boost. So that 120 kPa reading isn't accurate.

Here's the channel listing I use, which has several MAP channels in it:

Stoops.Channels.xml


And here's the layout I use:

Stoops.Layout.xml


Here's what the layout looks like ... Notice the last grouping of channels in the charts has the MAP detail.

PRatio_1.JPG

Notice in that screenshot, PRatio is just crossing over 1.0 ... so it's just about to enter boost, and the non-generic MAP sensor reading is 126.5kPa, the standard MAP reading is 109.2, but the SAE MAP channel and Calculated MAP are both reading 100.

So, what MAP channel are you looking at when you are trying to determine what the manifold absolute pressure is when you finally enter boost?

And yeah, if your MAP settings are not correct, it will throw your airflow model way off and the fueling won't be right.

If the MAP is set correctly, baro will not be off. Se the MAP characterization fields to be accurate for the 3-bar sensor, and baro will be correct.

[Stoopalini]

I took a closer look at your tune file this morning. Your VVT cam position tables do not look right. It looks like you had the Whipple tune installed, and it was then modified a bit from those.

I believe Whipple had the Part Throttle Base and Max TIP tables reversed in their canned tune mapping though, and thus your PT base VVT table has the cam fully retarded for a majority of the map. The Max Tip table though, looks a little more like what a base (part throttle) table would normally be.

If you do a compare of the factory tune to the Whipple calibrations, you'll see what I mean about the Base and Max Tip tables being swapped.

It also looks like you directly copied Hemituna's throttle body airflow, large and small range tables out of his 6.4 Whipple tune and pasted them into yours, but you did not copy the Driver Demand tables. I imagine your throttle is extremely touchy coming off a stop as all of these tables work together to provide the driver feel of the accelerator pedal.


Here's a copy of my latest tune, if you want to compare and contrast to what is working for me. Note that I have the Mopar 2.5 bar MAP sensor in mine though (not the 3-bar sensor Whipple included), and I also have the 92mm Hellcat throttle body .... so don't try to use my MAP characteristic data on your vehicle as it won't be right. The values HaasEXP posted above is what you should have entered in the MAP characterization fields.

TH_12022024_Base.hpt

Also note I have the neural network enabled on mine, although my SD VE map was setup and tested for my vehicle to run in SD mode previously. I find the neural network is better at hitting fuel targets though, especially if the tune has the cam changing positions.

The VE table is a map of airflow (volumetric efficiency of cylinder fill). When the cam moves to a different position, the airflow dynamics change and thus the VE changes too. That's why the neural network was introduced for variable cam engines, because one static VE table will only be correct for one cam position. If you are barely moving the cam, then it's fine ... but if you're going from full cam retard to max cam advance, then the VE table has to be a compromise of airflow and thus fueling targets will wander throughout the cam swinging. With the ANN enabled, the PCM can adjust the VE for the different cam angles.

[LilSick]

its not called base tom, its the "normal" table [36574]

it is switched with the tip in [36548] in whipples tune but its prolly for the best...

i do not want the cam full retard soon as i am off idle like the factory had it

prolly works great when efficiency and emissions are the main concerns...

but how often does someone who is mainly worried about mileage bolt a 3 liter blower on top of their motor?

bypass or no bypass : )


*i would set the majority of that normal table between 116 and 113 for your 5.7

[Stoopalini]

Check out his tune ... his normal table is fully retarded not only right off idle (like factory has), but now also at idle and throughout the RPM range up to shift. It's only really coming off full retard up in the higher aircharge rows

Skyboys_Normal_VVT_Table.JPG

His Max Tip table looks like the factory Normal table:

Skyboys_Max-Tip_VVT_Table.JPG

[dodgeboy]

That makes no sense.. you think off idle, under load, to mid range you would want the cam advanced and then start to retard as advancing a cam lowers the RPM range it peaks at and retarding it raises it.


okay now I'm going back to :Lurk:

[LilSick]

you would think that off idle under load to mid range you would want the cam advanced

for performance you do

for emissions and efficiency the factory must have found they could get away with more when they pulled it back

this is from a 2014 tune but they did not change that table at all over the last decade

[skyboy666]

I've taken quite a few notes and scanned the other posts mentioned. I changed the throttle body mapping to find that sweet spot of transition to boost.
Obviously this causes other issues. I then adjusted the the top and bottom ranges to mitigate the runaway throttle and harsh throttle surge when rolling to a stop.
I will be fine tuning the torque tables to make the trans happy. That will take some time.
My startup fueling is terrible and ve tables will have to be adjusted as well as some other idle settings.

I believe I'm headed in the right direction? Please let me know if I'm waay off base