Rough Idle on E85 (help)

[esalberg]

Seems to be a fueling issue on E85 when at idle, when hot but even worse when cold. However there is absolutely no issues that I can see at WOT which leads me to be quite certain it's not a mechanical issue, it's something with the idle tune strategy. Please advise.

FULL_E85_READ.hpt

E85-Cold-Start-Idle-New.hpl
E85-Warm-Idle.hpl
3rd-Gear-Pull-WOT-E85.hpl

[esalberg]

hello??

[esalberg]

bump

[09Vic]

I'm not an expert but I didn't see your wideband being logged.

Also I would post your stock tune file and list what kind of vehicle you have and supporting mods to run e-85.

Suggestions would be to get an After Market wideband so you can see what your fuel trim is doing in the exhaust to double check your changes aren't to rich or lean. Of course the cats will mess with your readings but you should be able to math around that to get a good idea.

Hopefully someone with knowledge about your set-up will chime in with ideas.

[esalberg]

Here's another log on the same map.

Another-Cold-Start.hpl

[esalberg]

I don't know what parameter wideband is actually called. If you mean WB EQ Ratio 1 it should be there in the log. Also I haven't been on my stock tune file in years so I'm not sure how that would be relevant. Only mod regarding E85 is the Nostrum standard bore HPFP. I can see what the fuel trim is doing - it's not good. And also I don't have cats.

[esalberg]

I'm not an expert

Also, perfectly understandable but I'm very curious where the experts are.. doesn't seem to be much of anyone in this forum, not on the mustang ecoboosts forum, certainly not on Facebook, etc. How do I find an expert on this

[09Vic]

Unfortunately like in most things in the automotive world the experts do this for a living. As an automotive professional they have been taken for granted and exploited so much on their way to knowledge most won't share what they know for free anymore.

I can't tell you what to do but I will tell you what I did. I read through the posts here. A lot of them. I learned a lot that way and when I got stuck I found one of the people here that seemed knowledgeable about my specific vehicle which is currently a 2020 f-150 3.5 ecoboost, Sent them a message and offered payment for their help.

Now I am learning more by paying them for their knowledge. I think that is only fair since they went through the process of learning what they know to support themselves.

I have tried doing ethanol blends in my truck and found that e-30 worked pretty good or at least I thought it did until I installed a wideband. Once I did that I found out it wasn't so good. I was running crazy lean. So after a pretty big adjustment to stoich the truck is running way better overall. Basically had to change it from 14.08 to 13.25 on regular premium fuel just to get good AFR readings.

So if idle is bad and the rest seems ok I would still install an after market AFR meter just to get the data and possibly help you get to where you'd like to be.

[esalberg]

Unfortunately like in most things in the automotive world the experts do this for a living. As an automotive professional they have been taken for granted and exploited so much on their way to knowledge most won't share what they know for free anymore.

I wasn't thinking that it would be for free I'd just thought it would exist somewhere. The tuner that I am paying has no idea about any of this stuff. I'm curious who you are paying for their knowledge, feel free to refer them, as so far I have found no one who knows anything about any of this, and I've spoken with all the "top" ecoboost tuners out there. Definitely willing to pay unlimited $$$ for someone who has knowledge of this.

Also I'm not sure what you mean about an installing an aftermarket AFR to "get data". I posted 4 logs of data which include AFR data, what did you think of those?

[09Vic]

How long does it idle poorly?
Does it drive out just fine besides the idle?

I noticed your STFT goes pretty rich at first then settles down according to the logs.

[09Vic]

Also noticed your fuel pump DC at 100% for quite a while. Seems that could be causing your overly rich condition. Did you enter in the data from the new fuel pump?

[esalberg]

It idles poorly all the time, even at the warm idle you will notice the STFT at 26%. And no I didn't personally enter the data of the fuel pump DC into the tune, but my tuner was supposed to handle that...

[09Vic]

Ok 2 things I would check and verify before moving onto anything else.

1) Its adding a lot of fuel for some reason. Possible vacuum leak etc.. I would smoke test your entire air intake system to verify no leaks. For some reason it thinks it needs more fuel.

2) I would call the company that made the fuel pump and get the data just for verification if you don't find a mechanical issue that's affecting your fuel trims.

[esalberg]

Appreciate the reply.

I don't think it's a mechanical issue due to it only being an issue at idle, but I do have a smoke test machine so I might check that just cause.

I did hear word from Nostrum that the problem is there is a set of tables that HPTuners have not added to my tune yet. There is a factory "low current mode" being enabled on the pump sometimes, it seems. Various folks have requested for HPTuners to support adjusting this parameter and apparently (as you may notice by this forum) no one really works at HPTuners anymore lol. So now I'm trying to figure out if I have to switch to Cobb or what. Wish I could go standalone without messing stuff up a lot, like if someone made a plug n play ECU.

[Evo8john]

Appreciate the reply.

I don't think it's a mechanical issue due to it only being an issue at idle, but I do have a smoke test machine so I might check that just cause.

I did hear word from Nostrum that the problem is there is a set of tables that HPTuners have not added to my tune yet. There is a factory "low current mode" being enabled on the pump sometimes, it seems. Various folks have requested for HPTuners to support adjusting this parameter and apparently (as you may notice by this forum) no one really works at HPTuners anymore lol. So now I'm trying to figure out if I have to switch to Cobb or what. Wish I could go standalone without messing stuff up a lot, like if someone made a plug n play ECU.

Forum posts don't get nearly the attention of a ticket. Have you tried to put in a ticket requesting the tables needed?

[Ntrain2k]

Also, maybe if you posted what car/engine/mods from the onset. 6 posts in before any mention of a mod was made.

[Coyote Chaser]

I'm not an expert either, but I do run an Ecoboost Mustang on blends of ethanol and don't have any idle issues, even while on a 93 octane tune.

Example: I switched my tune file to 93 octane and flushed my fuel system with pump gas before storing my car for the winter, a few weeks ago, I pushed my car out of storage and added 2 gallons of flex fuel. For reasons unknown, I wasn't able to switch to my ethanol tune file and had to start my car with ethanol, on a 93 octane tune, no issues with idle, and moved the car back into the garage.

I would start by reviewing the changes you made to your tune file when you installed the high pressure fuel pump.

PS: I did look at your tune file and noticed under idle/torque/feedback/max vss is set to 2 mph and mine is 3 mph, plus max correction is set to 75 nm and mine is 35 nm. Everything else seems the same.

Important: What modifications have you made to your Ecoboost Mustang?

[esalberg]

Also, maybe if you posted what car/engine/mods from the onset. 6 posts in before any mention of a mod was made.

2018 Mustang Ecoboost, FBO on E85 with Nostrum HPFP.

JLT CAI, MBRP catback, Garrett intercooler, Mishimoto cooling, Brisk RR12YS spark plugs, CVF catless dp, etc. The usual stuff.

[esalberg]

Forum posts don't get nearly the attention of a ticket. Have you tried to put in a ticket requesting the tables needed?

Yes, as did various other interested parties including Nostrum themselves. Pretty sure the reply I personally got was AI generated or a template or something.

HPTuners said things like "it seems like you?re having trouble with the calibration of your vehicle, and not the product itself", which I don't even know what that's supposed to mean...and "whatever tables are in your vehicles calibration are what we were able to find" which again is about as cryptic as can be. Then after I pressed on that someone replied with "I honestly have no idea who Nostrum is so I'm not sure what they are asking for to be perfectly honest with you." Exact quotes. Not that I expect them to know every company out there, but first of all there are only like 2 companies that makes ANY high pressure fuel pumps for our cars, and secondly I'm pretty sure they have the same internet that I do, they can look up who they are if they want...

Turns out HPTuners was not providing some tables needed to control the HPFP correctly and it was running in a low current mode causing the fluctuation as I mentioned earlier... They have now provided some of the parameters needed so the idle is a lot more stable now but still needs a good bit of work.

[Coyote Chaser]

Was your Ecoboost Mustang "HP" tuned before you added the E85 modifications? From earlier post, it sounds like you have a car with standard stage 3 bolt-ons, very similar to an earlier version of my 2018 Ecoboost Mustang.

If you can post your stage 3 (93 octane) tune file, I'd like to compare it to mine for educational reasons.

I've learned a lot from comparing my files to others.

Thanks