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Thread: TC Duty Cycle tables for 4T60E in '97 Bonneville?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by big_news_1
    TTT

    Any ideas? I'm willing to explore all options... Anybody know exactly what it would take to use a '98 PCM for a '65E in a '97 with a '60E? I'll rewire or re-harness if I need to.... I've just got to get this car back in good shape.
    Ben, if you need/have to go to a 98-up PCM, you will have to rewire the PCM harness...move pins here and there. Go to this site for your pinouts and any 1998 style PCM:

    http://home.att.net/~subzero350/

    To run the -60 with it, just connect everything you normally would with the exception of the force motor and the trans speed sensor (not talking about the one at the tailshaft). Then set those values to zero, and delete the codes associated with those controls.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_news_1
    Can you elaborate on this a little more? Which of the other TCC tables did you find through other means? Is there anything you have found that could disable or modify the pulse width modulation lockup?
    Tables aren't for the 97 with the 60.. My GTP however, I do have access to a few of the additional TCC tables. (Apply Rate and DC, via a hex editor).

    The solution in the above post is probably your best choice unless you want to wait for tables to be mapped in the 97s.
    97 Grand Prix GTP (not going to bother listing mods in detail) 1 messed up 97 PCM with about 30-50% of a 2003 calibration and parts of a few others.

  3. #23
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    Actually I had suggested that we convert the car to a 4T65-E because I have a spare built and waiting in my shop in the back yard. I also have several known good 97 bonneville bins with a 4T65-E.
    So he needs an l67 top swap & a 4T65-E.
    I have enough parts to do the top swap too.
    Best 60' = 1.716
    Best ET = 12.186
    Best MPH = 112.98


  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDXGTP
    Actually I had suggested that we convert the car to a 4T65-E because I have a spare built and waiting in my shop in the back yard. I also have several known good 97 bonneville bins with a 4T65-E.
    So he needs an l67 top swap & a 4T65-E.
    I have enough parts to do the top swap too.
    Lol! I'll do it if you can explain to my wife why we're swapping out my newly rebuilt 4T60E (which cost $2200, by the way) for a different tranny!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandrock
    Ben, if you need/have to go to a 98-up PCM, you will have to rewire the PCM harness...move pins here and there. Go to this site for your pinouts and any 1998 style PCM:

    http://home.att.net/~subzero350/

    To run the -60 with it, just connect everything you normally would with the exception of the force motor and the trans speed sensor (not talking about the one at the tailshaft). Then set those values to zero, and delete the codes associated with those controls.
    So as long as I get the pins in the right places, the physical harness will mate up to a 98+ PCM??? So maybe this is what I ought to do, eh?

    Thomas, does this look like something you would be interested in helping with? I'm not all that good with wiring/electronics... what do you think?

  6. #26
    Sounds about right Ben. If you decide to go with a -65, your best bet would be to secure the trans harness intact...meaning go to the junkyard, separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, all the way to the PCM pins.

    Actually I had suggested that we convert the car to a 4T65-E because I have a spare built and waiting in my shop in the back yard. I also have several known good 97 bonneville bins with a 4T65-E.
    So he needs an l67 top swap & a 4T65-E.
    I have enough parts to do the top swap too.
    He wouldn't *need* the top swap. Only pins that the OS would add would be BCS related, and those codes can be turned off, and values zeroed out. All the other tables could mimic an L36, or whatever his tune is. At least, I *think* so.

    But if he WANTS the topswap...well....that's whole 'nuther game =)
    Last edited by sandrock; 03-19-2008 at 06:57 PM.

  7. #27
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    Looks like I may have gotten the update I needed from the HP Tuners team. Downloading now.

  8. #28
    NICE! Let me know how that works for you. I'm having trans issues of my own now

  9. #29
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    The update we got still didn't fix the issue

    Here's the deal: When I had the tranny built, the technician said the TCC was slipping about 200 RPM when locked. He said the paper-lined converter clutch we installed has a maximum allowable slip of only about 10 RPM. So we're trying to get the TCC to slip less than 10 RPM when locked so the clutch doesn't get burnt up. Makes sense, right?

    Today, after downloading the update for HP Tuners, we used Autotap to monitor TCC slip when under lockup. We monitored a parameter called TCC Slip RPM, but for some reason it didn't seem to be giving us accurate data. It kept showing 1 or 2 as the value while cruising, and every now and then would show 31 when I let off the gas. Then while idling at a stop sign it normally read 0. Nothing like the 200 RPM the technician claimed to have seen. So we pulled up "Engine RPM" and "Transmission Input Shaft RPM" and figured that the two numbers should be almost identical if the TCC were locking up properly. We found that on average the two numbers were 150-200 RPM different, which seems to verify what my tranny builder told me.

    The crappy thing is that changing my TCC Duty Cycle didn't affect the numbers at all. The HP Tuners update gave me a mutant form of the regular Duty Cycle controls (hopefully Thomas will post them up in the near future), but they seemed to have no effect on the relationship between Engine RPM and Input Shaft RPM. No matter what we did the numbers were always about 200 RPM different. We changed PCMs, we monkeyed with the duty cycle minimum, we even held hands and prayed to the Almighty God. Nothing worked. We have a theory that it has something to do with the Duty Cycle minimum table referencing line pressure, which I don't have. Beyond that, we just can't figure it out.

    Are we going about this wrong? Were we correct in watching Engine RPM compared to Input Shaft RPM? Are we missing something vital?

    I'm about to take a sledge hammer to this car and be done with it

  10. #30
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    Lets see if this will allow me to past a pic.
    This is the slip Ben was talking about.
    Now I need to edit this post.
    I believe the new parameters did not work because this car does not have a pressure transducer.
    The parameter needs line pressure vs trans oil temp and it only has data for the trans oil temp.
    Bummer.
    Last edited by PDXGTP; 03-30-2008 at 11:22 PM.
    Best 60' = 1.716
    Best ET = 12.186
    Best MPH = 112.98


  11. #31
    So, let me get this straight....

    1997 models, no matter what trans they got, got the same trans operation system??

    Ben, if this is the case...you might want to consider what Bill is doing with his '97. It may very well be the only way for you to go now.

  12. #32
    if you log the TCC Duty cycle PID and it is showing 99-100% then the TCC line pressure is at its maximum, ie. the solenoid is fully open applying full pressure from the TCC supply line to the TCC clutch to lock it. If that is not enough pressure to lock the TCC then to me it points towards a hydraulic issue. ie. the main pressure control solenoid (the force motor) is not supplying enough base pressure to hold the other workings and provide to the TCC etc. or some other detailed trans issue.

    The 97 V6's have slightly different min/max values for the duty cycle in that there is only one single max value and a 2d table for the min value (compared to the two min/max 3d tables for the later code). In all other respects the code looks the same, and in actual fact is mostly the same code (logic) used on the LS1 V8 PCM's.

    Hope that helps,

    Chris...
    I count sheep in hex...

  13. #33
    also, have you tried logging TCC Slip RPM using VCM Scanner?

    TCC Slip RPM is calculated as the difference between the Engine RPM and the Turbine RPM and Turbine RPM is the the Input RPM multiplied by your sprocket/chain ratio.

    If your trans doesn't have an input speed sensor then input speed is calculated back from the output sensor speed multiplied by the ratio of whatever gear you are in.

    You cannot log Turbine RPM, but you should be at least able to verify that in 4th gear your input and output RPM match. You can use user defined pids if you need to calculate Slip RPM from Engine RPM etc. to check the logged value of TCC Slip RPM.

    Chris...
    I count sheep in hex...

  14. #34
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    Thanks Chris,
    That's how we measured the slip but we used a different program because I didn't know we could use HPT to do this.
    Best 60' = 1.716
    Best ET = 12.186
    Best MPH = 112.98


  15. #35
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    Just a FYI, I requested/downloaded the the latest beta for my 97 GTP. TCC tables are present and working. (I had seen them in the past, but not in HPTuner yet.)

    I suspected it is something with the 4T60E vs the 4T65E.. The 97 Grand Prix GT (as it turns out) was the only Grand Prix from 97-03 to not use the 4T65E.

    I makes me wonder how the 60 applies the TCC.
    97 Grand Prix GTP (not going to bother listing mods in detail) 1 messed up 97 PCM with about 30-50% of a 2003 calibration and parts of a few others.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners
    if you log the TCC Duty cycle PID and it is showing 99-100% then the TCC line pressure is at its maximum, ie. the solenoid is fully open applying full pressure from the TCC supply line to the TCC clutch to lock it. If that is not enough pressure to lock the TCC then to me it points towards a hydraulic issue. ie. the main pressure control solenoid (the force motor) is not supplying enough base pressure to hold the other workings and provide to the TCC etc. or some other detailed trans issue.
    So you're saying that if TCC Duty Cycle shows 100% (which it did when we scanned) there should be zero slip during lockup? How does pulse width modulation (PWM) figure into the equation? Does this mean my car is already programmed for 100% no-slip lockup if I see duty cycle at 100% while cruising?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners
    TCC Slip RPM is calculated as the difference between the Engine RPM and the Turbine RPM and Turbine RPM is the the Input RPM multiplied by your sprocket/chain ratio.
    When we were watching the scanner we were directly comparing Engine RPM with Input Shaft RPM... is this wrong? Are you saying we need to multiply Input Shaft RPM by a certain factor to come up with the correct number? If so, we were doing it wrong.

    How would a person correctly figure this equation? I have a 3.43 FDR.

  17. #37
    if you are seeing 100% TCC Duty Cycle then the TCC Pressure Solenoid is fully open. The PWM signal (duty cycle) is the percent "open" the solenoid is (roughly speaking). If it shows 0% then it is fully closed ie. a release. If it is 100% it is fully open ie. locking.

    The TCC works by hydraulic pressure coming from the main line feed (controlled by the force motor solenoid). If there is not enough pressure in the main line to hold the TCC clutch when the TCC solenoid is fully open then it will slip. Generally when coasting the base trans pressure is not very high and if you need a lot of pressure to lock your TCC then you might want to modify the force motor table to increase pressure across the board.

    It may also be an issue with the trans design and hydraulic pathways but this is something that is beyond my knowledge.

    Chris...
    I count sheep in hex...

  18. #38
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    That's good food for thought. Perhaps we can try more tuning sometime soon. I need to get my own setup so I don't keep bothering Thomas, though


    So can you confirm or deny that we were figuring TCC slip correctly?

  19. #39
    Chris, I think you are stuck in 4T65 mode. The 4T60 never came with a force motor. It's fluid pressure is controlled solely by the vaccuum modulator. Solenoids A,B, TCC PWM, and TCC enable solenoids function in the same manor though.

    This is why I am confused when I see force motor values in Bens -60e file. They shouldn't be there at all when Laymans logic is applied.

  20. #40
    TCC Slip RPM is the difference between the Engine RPM and the Turbine RPM. The Turbine is the inner part of the converter that goes to the tranmission. The engine is connected to the outer housing of the converter. So the difference between the two is the converter slip.

    On most FWD cars the turbine does not connect directly to the input shaft, but there is a chain/sprocket system that connects the two. In some cases the ratio of this chain/sprocket is 1:1 so turbine speed would be the same as input speed, but in some cases it is not. eg. a GTP usually has 1.121:1 sprocket ratio, so in that case the input speed is Turbine RPM / 1.121 meaning the input speed is 1.121 slower than the turbine RPM.

    You can see the sprocket ratio in the editor under the speedo section.

    Chris...
    I count sheep in hex...