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Thread: TC Duty Cycle tables for 4T60E in '97 Bonneville?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandrock
    Chris, I think you are stuck in 4T65 mode. The 4T60 never came with a force motor. It's fluid pressure is controlled solely by the vaccuum modulator. Solenoids A,B, TCC PWM, and TCC enable solenoids function in the same manor though.

    This is why I am confused when I see force motor values in Bens -60e file. They shouldn't be there at all when Laymans logic is applied.
    Do you have any ideas for what ought to be modified, or if there's a chance there is a bad solenoid at fault?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by sandrock
    Chris, I think you are stuck in 4T65 mode. The 4T60 never came with a force motor. It's fluid pressure is controlled solely by the vaccuum modulator. Solenoids A,B, TCC PWM, and TCC enable solenoids function in the same manor though.

    This is why I am confused when I see force motor values in Bens -60e file. They shouldn't be there at all when Laymans logic is applied.
    ya i'm assuming everything is electronically controlled. if the trans pressure is vac modulated then you raise the pressure by other more traditional means. The code is generic, we don't hide tables based on the fact that a trans may or may not use them. If the trans is vac modulated then we expect you would know that
    I count sheep in hex...

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners
    ya i'm assuming everything is electronically controlled. if the trans pressure is vac modulated then you raise the pressure by other more traditional means. The code is generic, we don't hide tables based on the fact that a trans may or may not use them. If the trans is vac modulated then we expect you would know that
    I know the trans is vacuum modulated, I just wasn't very clear on what a "force motor" is and whether or not I have one . I obviously don't, so where does that leave me? Is this a mechanical issue, or am I tuning incorrectly, or is the TCC even slipping?

  4. #44
    log TCC Slip RPM using the scanner and that will tell you. You can also log TCC Mode in the status bits table to tell you if the TCC is off, applying, releasing or locked.

    A small amount of TCC slip is okay, like 10rpm or something. but if you are seeing more than 50 or 100 rpm a decent time after it should have applied or locked then something isn't right.

    Chris...
    I count sheep in hex...

  5. #45
    hey i noticed in the file you posted that the sprocket ratio is set at 1.211

    i'm not sure if this is correct or a typo because the typical values are either 1.0 or 1.121, not 1.211

    Remember this needs to be set correctly for the PCM to calculate the Turbine RPM (from the Input RPM) and hence the TCC Slip RPM.

    Chris...
    I count sheep in hex...

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners
    hey i noticed in the file you posted that the sprocket ratio is set at 1.211

    i'm not sure if this is correct or a typo because the typical values are either 1.0 or 1.121, not 1.211

    Remember this needs to be set correctly for the PCM to calculate the Turbine RPM (from the Input RPM) and hence the TCC Slip RPM.

    Chris...

    I'm having a little trouble understanding the layout you're describing with the turbine/input shaft relationship. The torque converter slides on to the input shaft during installation, and unless I'm crazy there's no chain/sprocket setup between the two. So I'm not sure how all that works. The other factor is that we were seeing a readout for input shaft RPM, but according to a buddy of mine there is no input shaft sensor on the 4T60E. So would the input shaft RPM possibly be derived from a different sensor, i.e. something that could be affected by an incorrect ratio put into the PCM?

    Bottom line: Are you thinking there is actually no slip, just a false reading based on incorrect numbers in my tune?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by big_news_1
    I'm having a little trouble understanding the layout you're describing with the turbine/input shaft relationship. The torque converter slides on to the input shaft during installation, and unless I'm crazy there's no chain/sprocket setup between the two. So I'm not sure how all that works. The other factor is that we were seeing a readout for input shaft RPM, but according to a buddy of mine there is no input shaft sensor on the 4T60E. So would the input shaft RPM possibly be derived from a different sensor, i.e. something that could be affected by an incorrect ratio put into the PCM?

    Bottom line: Are you thinking there is actually no slip, just a false reading based on incorrect numbers in my tune?
    i think you'll find that on the 4T60 the chain and sprocket is behind the side cover. The shaft that your converter slides onto drives the chain/sprocket that then drives the main input shaft.

    As i said above if you have no input speed sensor the input speed is calculated from the output speed sensor (the speedo sensor). The PCM calculates the input speed based on what gear you are in at the time. eg. Output Speed x Current Gear Ratio.
    I count sheep in hex...

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners
    hey i noticed in the file you posted that the sprocket ratio is set at 1.211
    i'm not sure if this is correct or a typo because the typical values are either 1.0 or 1.121, not 1.211
    Remember this needs to be set correctly for the PCM to calculate the Turbine RPM (from the Input RPM) and hence the TCC Slip RPM.
    Chris...
    Ok,
    Just to keep the constructive conversation rolling along.
    -The attachment called Ben1.jpg is Ben's program with the actual tune that he needs to run correctly with his mods etc.
    -The attachment called Ben2.jpg is the program we downloaded from his original PCM after we didn't make any progress with the Intense PCM which was the program in Ben1.jpg. In this program we took all of his tune parameters and copied them into this one so his car would run correctly but we didn't change any trans parms except we did change the TCC DC. In this case we changed the zero's in the TCC DC minimums to 44, no results, then 52 but again no results then 88 with no change in the results.
    -The attachment called Ben3.jpg is the stock program with zero modifications.

    The interesting thing is that both programs exhibited the same amount of slip.
    We need to keep looking at this until we figure something out.

    BTW, this is a really good thread.

    Later,
    Best 60' = 1.716
    Best ET = 12.186
    Best MPH = 112.98


  9. #49
    please post some scanner logs showing the following, along with the tune that was used for each.

    Engine RPM
    Vehicle Speed
    Input RPM
    Output RPM
    TCC Slip RPM
    TCC Mode
    TCC duty cycle
    I count sheep in hex...

  10. #50
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    Ben lives on the other side of Phoenix, I won't be able to go over to his side town until this weekend at the soonest.
    I will prepare by figuring out the PID's & scanner configuration and getting the scanner working right.
    I can test it on my car of course.
    Best 60' = 1.716
    Best ET = 12.186
    Best MPH = 112.98


  11. #51
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    Unfortunately I'll be out of town this weekend for a wedding Perhaps we can resume the following weekend?

    I really appreciate all the input in this thread so far... I feel like I've got a much better idea of what might be going on and why we might be having this issue.

  12. #52
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    Any updates on this? *crickets*

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mylittleblackbird
    Any updates on this? *crickets*
    Need to get with Ben and log it but I'm thinking its the TC. Its possible to have an initial failure part and its possible its the wrong TC too.

    When we get together I'll log it as suggested by Chris then post it, and Ben's buying the beer.
    Best 60' = 1.716
    Best ET = 12.186
    Best MPH = 112.98


  14. #54
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    Affirmative on the adult beverages, good buddy...

    What does this weekend look like for ya?

  15. #55
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    Time to revisit this...

    I finally got an HP Tuners setup of my own, so I'll see if I can go out later today and scan the parameters Chris recommended. Hopefully this will give us some quantifiable data from which we can draw solid conclusions.

  16. #56
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    Well, we made some progress today...

    I tried 4 different configurations of speedometer/VSS/FDR settings and came across a setup that indicates no more than 2rpm of TCC slip at full lockup. Shifts are still a little weird, so I'm not sure that I found the permanent solution. I also noticed with certain settings my TCC PWM Duty Cycle sat at 9% during lockup. This should be at 100%, so something is a bit goofy.

    I should note that the settings that showed minimal TCC slip were achieved using the "Auto Scale" gear ratio feature and my other attempts were with manually-calculated numbers.

    I have attached four files: two scans and two tunes. The scans are named for the corresponding tunes which were loaded when the data was captured. Please let me know if I can supply any more information.
    Last edited by big_news_1; 07-07-2008 at 10:52 PM.

  17. #57
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    Here's the last tune and scan I took, which was unsuccessful. The tune currently in the car is in the above post labeled "97 Bonneville Changed FDR3"
    Last edited by big_news_1; 07-07-2008 at 10:52 PM.

  18. #58
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    Bueller?