Timing Maximization based on KR* logging...Begginer question inside...

[Cantalope Kid]

So under Spark Tuning/Timing: Advance The Timing section it reads:

START>Add 5* onto the stock High Octane Table.

Drive around and log try to hit several points logging Spark Retard.

Once logging complete where you see KR* subtract 1* of timing from the High Octane Table and where you don't add 2*.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat until logs show 0-1 degrees of KR* present.

Now subract 2* from the entire High Octane. This will give you a good safe tune.<FINISH


I read elsewhere a safer method is to begin by adding only 2* to not the entire High Octane Table but to ONLY the driving and Wot sections of the table. This is due to several of the areas will rarely ever be hit. You do not want to acccidentally add in 5* of timing and due to not logging KR* in these areas later by some unkown freak accident enter this section of the table only to blow your motor.

NOW HERE IS THE Q...SO WHAT EXACTLY WOULD YOU CONSIDER THE DRIVING/WOT SECTIONS (RPM&G/CYL)OF THE TABLE SO I KNOW WHERE TO ADD IN MY 2* TO START THIS PROCESS OF MAXIMIZING MY TIMING USING KR* LOGS?

[redhardsupra]

you're not supposed to be maximizing, you supposed to be optimizing. maximum isnt always the best. i've seen one car where max power was at 22* but it didnt knock til 35*

[Cantalope Kid]

Thanks for the correction.

If I understand you correctly you are saying I need a dyno to maximize it for power, correct?

Anyhow to answer my optimizing question in relation to no KR* logged at what RPM&G/CYL do I start and stop?

[Cantalope Kid]

Veterans this should be an easy one for you. All I need to know is where I should/should not ad 2* of timing to the High Octane table to start working on optimization by working backwards off of KR* logging.

[redhardsupra]

tuning is optimization for maximum power. in order to know the maximum power, you need to have methodology and infrastructure that results in comparable, repeatable metrics. steady state dynos provide you with a controlled environment where you can get such a metric (horsepower).

the old methods of 'advance till you know, then back off a bit' is oldschool stuff, that does not apply to modern, efficient designs. it's good to know it as a history lesson, but i would not apply it to anything modern.

[Cantalope Kid]

Let me re-post what I am looking for again...

Something similar to the below used for Idle Tuning..

i.e. Ignition --> High Octane Table: Add 2 deg to all points 400 to 1000 RPM, .08 to .32 g/sec

EC_Tune where are you? I know you use a similar method to see if KR* is false or not...

[streetcar]

What Marcin is trying to convey is the safest way to optimize involves measurement of your changes...e.g.:loaded dyno that shows your changes in torque. I would NOT recommend adding 5* of timing and letting the knock sensor save you - its only a fail safe system, not a calibration tool; much like factory narrow band O2 sensors, again, not calibration tools. Both can be used to aid, but should never be used solely.

[Cantalope Kid]

What Marcin is trying to convey is the safest way to optimize involves measurement of your changes...e.g.:loaded dyno that shows your changes in torque. I would NOT recommend adding 5* of timing and letting the knock sensor save you - its only a fail safe system, not a calibration tool; much like factory narrow band O2 sensors, again, not calibration tools. Both can be used to aid, but should never be used solely.

I understand. The section of the tuning guide I am refrencing from I guess needs to be removed then cause I am getting from the CPIG'S guide (user still active on here?).

Different scenario then:

How about when I took the cells in my Scanner that did show KR* and I subrtracted this amount of KR* directly from my corresponding High Octane cells? I have to admit it did get rid of the KR* completely in all cells this way. No more stumbling or sputting at part throttle from the engine. Is this method okay to remove knock anyhow?

[streetcar]

I understand. The section of the tuning guide I am refrencing from I guess needs to be removed then cause I am getting from the CPIG'S guide (user still active on here?).

Different scenario then:

How about when I took the cells in my Scanner that did show KR* and I subrtracted this amount of KR* directly from my corresponding High Octane cells? I have to admit it did get rid of the KR* completely in all cells this way. No more stumbling or sputting at part throttle from the engine. Is this method okay to remove knock anyhow?

In the field, that works. The timing values may not be optimal (you still may make more power with less advance), but are somewhat safer in comparison. Many "tuners" increase advance until they receive feedback from the sensor and back off, 3-4% of the value. I wouldn't call it science, but it seems to work for the majority of them, and their customer's platforms.

Unless you're logging misfires, look into fueling. Generally to much advance wont cause much of what you describe, usually thats from being to lean, but possibly to rich. Target 14.7:1 or 1.00 Lambda

[Cantalope Kid]

Search thread : Too much of a good thing - Spark Advance

Re-emphasized alot of the above. Thanks guys! HP Tuners Forum comes through again for me...

Now I realize without a W/B or atleast the www.thetuningschool.com class or books I am completely bored with my HP TUNERS PRO. Time to post my latest log and tune in another thread and see what else I can learn.

[popeye55]

so after reading and following CPIG's How too my timing is like all over the place, choppy, and I am completely lost! I just read the "too much of a good thing" post. I am not planning to take my stock S10 to a dyno. That being the case then really why even mess with timing..wait here is my guess. I am guess on a stock vehical I can copy/ paste my HO table to the LO table....log it remove any KR....log again if no KR found copy paste HO to LO then remove x amount of timing from the LO table as a safety. Is this a correct process. Again I have followed CPIG's to the T of adding 2 degree after subtracting 50% of the KR but like I said the timing is climbing and climbing....I am not sure this is working. Any commets ????

[popeye55]

anyone wanna take a stick at my idea?