max torque timing table

[Eddie-98GTP]

I just compared the stock 98 GTP tables as well. For the most part, the table (max torque timing) is higher then the stock high octane spark. There are some cells where the timing is lower, but most of these will never be reached (.80 to .240 g/cyl and 2400 to 4400 RPM).The cells I did see that were lower and would be used were in the .68 to .92 g/cyl and 2800 to 4400 RPM.


Hmmm - wish we could get a definitive answer on this one. I am going to change my max torque timing table back to stock when I get my rocker arm (broke a Harland Sharp arm about a month ago, the replacement should be here Monday or Turesday). I'm interested to see what difference it will make.

[darkhorizon]

Even if it was 20 degrees higher, it doesnt mean that somewhere on the TRQ mangement end it pulls 30 degrees out off the top.

And how did you figure this out praytell?

Books > you obviously... If you want to know something there is a book out there that will at least enable you to find out the answer. The issue with looking at a BIN file in binary hex code, is the fact that it is extremely basic, as in its the same for anything with a microprocessor in most ways.

If I had my car out of storage, I would consider zero'ing this table and seeing what happens. My guess would be nothing.

[IndeedSS]

Here is a comparison of an 04 series II. I too would like to know for sure what this is truely effects.

[Eddie-98GTP]

Even if it was 20 degrees higher, it doesnt mean that somewhere on the TRQ mangement end it pulls 30 degrees out off the top.

True, I was just wondering exactlly what it does and why. It doesn't make sence to me why they would set this table higher, and then pull more timing

I will zero this table out and report my findings next week. That's one of the may great things about living in the South - I get to drive year round with no fear of rust. The daytime temps next week sound be in the high 40's to low 50's.

[darkhorizon]

It doesn't make sence to me why they would set this table higher, and then pull more timing

Well, more so why does this table exist in the first place? My guess is that the TRQ management sections were designed by a different team per say than the engine management team, and to prevent issues from running their torque management system on different motors with different timing setups, they could have a table they control, which would prevent things like severely retarded timing, or severely added timing. My issue with that is why throw away the good/bad fuel tables to go to another table that has no fuel quality resolution.

This might explain why your timing during shifts does interesting things that you cant quite track down? It would be nice IMO to have a table that you can reference for specific air mass timing calculations when you are trying to pull a bunch of timing for a short period of time.

[Perforator]

Even if it was 20 degrees higher, it doesnt mean that somewhere on the TRQ mangement end it pulls 30 degrees out off the top.



Books > you obviously... If you want to know something there is a book out there that will at least enable you to find out the answer. The issue with looking at a BIN file in binary hex code, is the fact that it is extremely basic, as in its the same for anything with a microprocessor in most ways.

If I had my car out of storage, I would consider zero'ing this table and seeing what happens. My guess would be nothing.

Nice. You get a swipe in at me and don't even answer the question. Kudos. Just proves you don't know wtf your talking about!

[IndeedSS]

Well, more so why does this table exist in the first place? My guess is that the TRQ management sections were designed by a different team per say than the engine management team, and to prevent issues from running their torque management system on different motors with different timing setups, they could have a table they control, which would prevent things like severely retarded timing, or severely added timing. My issue with that is why throw away the good/bad fuel tables to go to another table that has no fuel quality resolution.

This might explain why your timing during shifts does interesting things that you cant quite track down? It would be nice IMO to have a table that you can reference for specific air mass timing calculations when you are trying to pull a bunch of timing for a short period of time.

As I read this I get the feeling you are making a best guess and do not actually know what all this table effects. Am I correct?

[Chris@HPTuners]

The max torque timing table is used by the ECM to determine the amount of torque the engine is making. The torque calculations are usually referenced to a "Mean Best Timing" table (the table you are asking about).

So if your engine is running at 22deg spark and the MBT table says 24deg it uses this 2deg difference to offset the calculated torque values. Note that the MBT is often a theoretical number.

There's really no need to modify this table, we only ever really added it for the LS1 V8 engines for infomation and that got carried over to the V6 during that development.

On Fords the MBT is actually enforced as a maximum allowed timing, but for GM it is not.

Chris...

[IndeedSS]

The max torque timing table is used by the ECM to determine the amount of torque the engine is making. The torque calculations are usually referenced to a "Mean Best Timing" table (the table you are asking about).

So if your engine is running at 22deg spark and the MBT table says 24deg it uses this 2deg difference to offset the calculated torque values. Note that the MBT is often a theoretical number.

There's really no need to modify this table, we only ever really added it for the LS1 V8 engines for infomation and that got carried over to the V6 during that development.

On Fords the MBT is actually enforced as a maximum allowed timing, but for GM it is not.

Chris...

This is very helpful.

[Perforator]

Thanks Chris

[99ssei]

The max torque timing table is used by the ECM to determine the amount of torque the engine is making. The torque calculations are usually referenced to a "Mean Best Timing" table (the table you are asking about).

So if your engine is running at 22deg spark and the MBT table says 24deg it uses this 2deg difference to offset the calculated torque values. Note that the MBT is often a theoretical number.

There's really no need to modify this table, we only ever really added it for the LS1 V8 engines for infomation and that got carried over to the V6 during that development.

On Fords the MBT is actually enforced as a maximum allowed timing, but for GM it is not.

Chris...

If we've increased our High Octane table, by 4* should we then increase our Max Torque Table by the same amount?

I've heard that any timing advance past MBT just reduces power. Is that correct?

[Perforator]

The Max Torque Table is only used in calculating torque. It doesn't do anything to timing unless you hit some kind of torque limiter that would reduce timing.

[passingpower]

For some real fun, do a hiOc/MaxTq comparison on a stock 98 V6 Firebird.
But don't take my word for it, dig it out of the repository and see for yourself.

[krunchss]

Ok I've read these MSTS threads here, and other forums a million times. In the hunt for answers why at WOT my car pretty much sucks donkey balls, I keep finding these threads about MBTS.

Many people discussed increasing this table, then it was decided not to. Ok, fine. But I'm running the L67 values of this table in my L36 table for the most part (I have a intercooled Turbo) and the L67 values are approximately HALF of what my stock L36 values were. Hence, My MBTS table has been DECREASED. What would decreasing these values cause? Could this be some or all my problem?

It seems the most spark I can get at WOT is 8-12 degrees and that's running a WB AFR of 11.0. Again, with an intercooler. Something is just not right on my car.

Any help?

Thanx,
Krunch

[S2H]

Ok I've read these MSTS threads here, and other forums a million times. In the hunt for answers why at WOT my car pretty much sucks donkey balls, I keep finding these threads about MBTS.

Many people discussed increasing this table, then it was decided not to. Ok, fine. But I'm running the L67 values of this table in my L36 table for the most part (I have a intercooled Turbo) and the L67 values are approximately HALF of what my stock L36 values were. Hence, My MBTS table has been DECREASED. What would decreasing these values cause? Could this be some or all my problem?

It seems the most spark I can get at WOT is 8-12 degrees and that's running a WB AFR of 11.0. Again, with an intercooler. Something is just not right on my car.

Any help?

Thanx,
Krunch

sending a pm to you

this table doesnt effect anything except torque mangement

[krunchss]

So by running values in the WOT cells of approximately 1/2 of the L36 stock values (which are the L67 values) am I in essence causing a crap load MORE torque management to be commanded and making my car into an absolute dog at WOT?

Thanx,
Krunch

[S2H]

So by running values in the WOT cells of approximately 1/2 of the L36 stock values (which are the L67 values) am I in essence causing a crap load MORE torque management to be commanded and making my car into an absolute dog at WOT?

Thanx,
Krunch

not necessarily...but yes... you probably have a ton more torque reduction going on...

if you have an l36 pcm...you may want to put in the l36 table...
internal math may be different between the 2 pcms and yoru values may be getting way exxagerated..

[krunchss]

Well, I have an L36 PCM...Kinda. I'm running an L67 bin, even the 2 bar map (not that that likely matters to my current issues) I should make a sig here I guess.

EDIT - Nevermind, I have a sig here :P

Krunch