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Thread: 96-97 vortec trucks

  1. #141
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    is there anyone out there that is still messing with the 96-97 swap to 98-99 black box or the 411?

    i would like to get my hands on the pin out for the 96 to try the swap.

  2. #142
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    I just did a 97 to 0411, 96 should be the same. I can tune the 96 pcm though. Why do you want to make the switch

  3. #143
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    I don't have my GMT400 anymore, but I know I downloaded the pin outs in spreadsheet form at one time and I think it was from this forum. I looked and I don't have the pin outs anymore.
    Phil K.
    02 Camaro SS 5.7L LS1
    01 Silverado 1500HD 6.0L LQ4

  4. #144

  5. #145
    I was wondering if someone could help me with the 96 black box to the 411 swap it would be much appreciated!

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by 96c2500 350 vortec View Post
    I was wondering if someone could help me with the 96 black box to the 411 swap it would be much appreciated!

    all you will really find is to email that lex guy. that's about all I ever found about doing the swap. I've been tuning cars since the old prom days to the new ish stuff, so I think I have a bit of an understanding of what's needed. I emailed him, ask a few questions, got replies that made no sense. I replied back to him that I read you can sell me a ecm with a starting point flashed on it, so I don't have to worry about the tranny side. the reply I got was him basically blowing me off and he didn't seem to want to sell me anything. so I gave up. he didn't seem to want to be bothered by this internet always listing his name everywhere. I mean if I had something wrong. he could have just told me what I needed, gave me a price and I'd have paid it to avoid the junk yard hassle and starting from a bad base.

    hope you have better luck than me.

  7. #147
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    I've done a couple swaps havnt needed yet to do a 411 swap I've always installed a 98-99 black box you have to pin 1-2 injectors at the ecm. Turn vats off and tune. Both I've done have been 454 I just start with a 454 black box. Or 5.7l if that's what your tuning.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by ??? View Post
    all you will really find is to email that lex guy. that's about all I ever found about doing the swap. I've been tuning cars since the old prom days to the new ish stuff, so I think I have a bit of an understanding of what's needed. I emailed him, ask a few questions, got replies that made no sense. I replied back to him that I read you can sell me a ecm with a starting point flashed on it, so I don't have to worry about the tranny side. the reply I got was him basically blowing me off and he didn't seem to want to sell me anything. so I gave up. he didn't seem to want to be bothered by this internet always listing his name everywhere. I mean if I had something wrong. he could have just told me what I needed, gave me a price and I'd have paid it to avoid the junk yard hassle and starting from a bad base.

    hope you have better luck than me.
    Sounds exactly like the experience i had with him, i can't understand hoarding the spreadsheets privately and making a big post about how awesome you are for figuring this out and then not responding to anyone who actually wants to use your "holy than thou" pinout spreadsheet.

    I gave up on getting any information out of that dude. Its a lost cause. So ive been working on my own conversion spreadsheet for 1997 5.7 liter PCM to 2002 0411 PCM going pin by pin which i plan to make publicly available on this forum when its complete so no one has to go through hoops trying to get intouch with the unresponsive lextech.

    I will say the hardest part of the swap isn't the repining but the the different configurations these trucks had from the factory. Case ground vs isolated ground o2 sensors for example can throw you off as well as anything to do with EGR, EVAP, and a few other little things that were controlled differently on certain trucks.

    If you want to do this swap you better be good at reading wiring diagrams and know your way around a multimeter

  9. #149
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    any luck on that pinout? I got this one from a 01 blazer http://www.ppepower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10180 and AutoZone has some wiring diagrams that are good https://www.autozone.com/repairinfo/...96b43f80371563. I just did my swap but having issues with no speedo and trans wont shift, also trying to get a hold of LEX but no luck.

    2000 4.3 auto -2001 4.3 auto 01 motor in 00 so knock sensor wires are oem to pcm

  10. #150
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    I am hoping that the early 1996-97 are supported in the near future also. I got the 1996 0411 swap spreadsheet through another source after I experienced the same sort of run around others did. I see his point too, but I think not releasing the info publicly is costing him a lot of time each week on just bs requests for the information. The 1996 to 0411 spread sheet says the evap system must be disabled or a later canister and pressure sensor must be swapped in. Some parts of my state still have very strict screening for emissions. Yes, I could pull the evap system from a 98, but at this point I would rather just be able to mess with the original black box and would gladly buy the credits to do it even if it was more than the LSx. There are also wires that have to be spliced and added for 96. I guess the 1998 and up are an easier swap, more a repin. There are a lot of threads on the internet for people looking to use what they have with the 1996/97 trucks. Some even mention a "Road Runner" to program it, its $1700! I also know a person who worked in GM vcm calibration. He says the black boxes actually have a better pressure profile for the 4l80e than the newer pcms, because of a staff change after 98. The new guy did soften the shifts up and durably suffered a little. While it can be changed, I would rather just start from the base my l29 had originally. The same person has a "copy" of the software that was used to prototype the calibrations pre-production on the early black boxes, but he says its not user friendly, runs only on XP and is not explained. He can use it, as he is trained, but people like myself would probably mess things up. That's my pitch, just hoping that someone official takes a harder look at taking the 1996-1997 vortec truck owners money after 8 years of posts.
    Last edited by don-f; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:22 PM.

  11. #151
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    411 swap is the way to go. It cheap, easy, and will make an instant improvement. If you can?t find a spreadsheet to do all the thinking for you, you can find pinouts online and make your own cross reference spreadsheet.

    The swap was absolutely worth while. I use my 83 K5 as a DD and road trip vehicle.

    Before I order my ?kit? on eBay, I did some research, and you can find the pinouts online. You could easily make your own spreadsheet with a couple hours of google time, especially when I?ve already posted the spreadsheet I used as a starting point, and the 96 to 97 engines are the same.

    My 1997 had the black box, and a painless harness when I got it. The wiring color codes matched factory and it was a simple process. I spent more time organizing individual wires before inserting the pins just to make it look good, and building mounting brackets. Even at that, it was a 2 hour job max.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by wlwarnke View Post
    I?ve already posted the spreadsheet I used as a starting point, and the 96 to 97 engines are the same.
    That is my file that I specifically asked NOT to be hosted or posted or given out. What gives you the right to post my work to any forum? You are also wrong about the files being the same. I regularly get e-mails from guys who got the wrong file from someone other than me and are now having issues that they want me to help sort out.
    I answer PM's on probably 6 different forums. I am not hard to reach. If someone PM's me and they don't get a response it is because they did not list either the year of truck or an e-mail address. I would guess that probably 60% of the messages I get either have no name, year of truck or e-mail address, sometimes all three.

    Jeff Jones---Lextech
    98 GMC Twin Turbo 5.0, 4L80e, Moser 60, 4:10s,

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by wlwarnke View Post
    411 swap is the way to go. It cheap, easy, and will make an instant improvement. If you can?t find a spreadsheet to do all the thinking for you, you can find pinouts online and make your own cross reference spreadsheet.

    The swap was absolutely worth while. I use my 83 K5 as a DD and road trip vehicle.
    So a few points. Since your 83 K5 is probably a swap to what sounds like a vortec engine, you were cutting up the harness anyway and its probably so old you don't have to pass smog or worry about swapping in the evap system or other support systems for emissions, so yes that would be my choice too. I do not doubt your vehicle runs well, congrats on that. Yes, I know how to make my own pinout chart. The work and tips in the sheets by lextech, if you can find them offline, is very impressive. I think the sheets as they are now are the result of refinement over a lot of swaps and have a few tips that even an experienced user doing a one off sheet, may or may not catch unless they did multiple swaps over time like the creator has.

    The internet is full of 96/97 vortec people looking for a more subtle solution other than "just swapping in a 0411." In my case with the 7.4 some of the excuses for swapping in an 0411, like the hard rev limit in the black box don't matter to me personally as its a tow vehicle and its never going to hit that rpm anyway even with a 0411 swap. The dual timing tables, don't much matter to me either as I always use the same fuel grade. Neither does tow haul mode as its always towing. Just your standard tow application, slow and even if I could alter the tune at this point it would not be anything aggressive spark table wise. In your case it may be easier to relate it to your project by asking why you swapped in an older engine into your project when its almost the same work to do an Lsx and you have the ecm anyway? Not trying to start anything, ha ha. Just illustrating that sometimes there is more than one way to end up with what you want. At this point I looked at the differences and will not be doing a 0411 swap, I have other options to change the tune when needed. None are as nice as if HP tuners would decide to support the first two years of Vortec powered GM trucks.

  14. #154
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    I didn?t realized that was your sheet and it wasn?t supposed to be posted anywhere. Like I said, I got it off eBay when I bought a 411.

    I?ll remove it. Sorry.

    As far as the swap, if you skip over all the hype about rev limiters, and dual fuel, etc, the engine, in stock trim, just runs better, cleaner, crisper.

    You can keep EGR and EVAP fully functional. You don?t hack up your harness. If you do it clean, it?ll look and function like factory.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by wlwarnke View Post
    As far as the swap, if you skip over all the hype about rev limiters, and dual fuel, etc, the engine, in stock trim, just runs better, cleaner, crisper.

    You can keep EGR and EVAP fully functional. You don?t hack up your harness. If you do it clean, it?ll look and function like factory.
    Not buying that. While I am sure your engine runs "cleaner, crisper" on the programming you have now, I obviously would not be running a 7.4 on a stock 350 express van tune. So for the pcm swap things fuel and spark wise would change. No reason you cant duplicate the same conditions with a black box if tuning was supported. I am sure the 0411 a superior pcm and worth the effort to some depending on what they are doing with their project. Not the point. As far as emissions, no one said you cant keep the smog stuff functional, it even says that in the spread sheets. Its just the effort of not only the swap of the pcm its pulling all the needed smog stuff off a 98 you find in a pick a part and having to transfer it to the 96. I appreciate the suggestions, but after looking at it all with this mild application I have other options that I will use, the only reason I posted is to maybe reinforce the fact that not everyone needs to "swap to a 0411" or wants to, but still would not mind giving HP tuners some of their money.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by wlwarnke View Post
    I didn?t realized that was your sheet and it wasn?t supposed to be posted anywhere. Like I said, I got it off eBay when I bought a 411.

    I?ll remove it. Sorry.
    Thank You. I don't sell anything on E-Bay. That is kind of dirty for them to use my info.

    Jeff
    98 GMC Twin Turbo 5.0, 4L80e, Moser 60, 4:10s,

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by don-f View Post
    I am hoping that the early 1996-97 are supported in the near future also .... just hoping that someone official takes a harder look at taking the 1996-1997 vortec truck owners money after 8 years of posts.
    So you think that after 23 years HP Tuners has not looked at a business case for these controllers ?

    They have, as did EFILive - the bottom line - the small return is not worth the investment to reverse engineer the code, and to develop the read and write protocols.


    Quote Originally Posted by don-f View Post
    Some even mention a "Road Runner" to program it, its $1700! 1997
    The RoadRunner is based on a P01 (LS1 style) PCM, and cannot be used to tune a Black Box Vortec PCM. The only means that you may still legitimately purchase Tunercat software (with will allow you to tune a 1996 Black Box PCM), is if you first purchase a RoadRunner from Moates.

    A RoadRunner from Moates is $599, not $1700.


    Quote Originally Posted by don-f View Post
    The internet is full of 96/97 vortec people looking for a more subtle solution other than "just swapping in a 0411."
    No - not remotely true. I have been the LS conversion industry for 20 years. I have not have one single inquiry about Black Box PCM support or conversions. I do receive a small amount of inquires for support for the 1994 to 1997 LT1 PCMs - which are also not supported by HP Tuners or EFILive.

    Quote Originally Posted by don-f View Post
    I have other options to change the tune when needed. None are as nice as if HP tuners would decide to support the first two years of Vortec powered GM trucks.
    It would be nice if the rest of the world bent to our individual needs - but not realistic.


    Quote Originally Posted by don-f View Post
    Not buying that. While I am sure your engine runs "cleaner, crisper" on the programming you have now, I obviously would not be running a 7.4 on a stock 350 express van tune. So for the pcm swap things fuel and spark wise would change. No reason you cant duplicate the same conditions with a black box if tuning was supported.
    This comment shows that you know absolutely nothing about tuning. The OBD2 data stream in the Black Box PCM is missing parameters required to accurately tune the MAF Sensor, which are readily available in the later LS1 style PCMs (P01 or "0411").

    There are other parameters and tables that are of low resolution when compared to the later LS1 PCMs.

    You cannot tune a Black Box PCM to operate an engine as well as the LS1 style PCM can do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by don-f View Post
    ... but still would not mind giving HP tuners some of their money.
    Not enough money in this endeavor for HP Tuners to be bothered with.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon S. View Post
    So you think that after 23 years HP Tuners has not looked at a business case for these controllers ?

    They have, as did EFILive - the bottom line - the small return is not worth the investment to reverse engineer the code, and to develop the read and write protocols.

    It would be nice if the rest of the world bent to our individual needs - but not realistic.

    OK.. do you think that bumping a thread saying that I was interested in the early black box being supported also was telling HP tuners what to do business wise? I don't speak for HP tuners and doubt you do either. It was a bump, just like all the others to indicate interest. So don't get all 12 year old, OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon S. View Post
    The RoadRunner is based on a P01 (LS1 style) PCM, and cannot be used to tune a Black Box Vortec PCM. The only means that you may still legitimately purchase Tunercat software (with will allow you to tune a 1996 Black Box PCM), is if you first purchase a RoadRunner from Moates.

    A RoadRunner from Moates is $599, not $1700.
    You may want to do a bit more research before you go all keyboard warrior there. There are different software packages from Moates, only available to RoadRunner owners. Check the first supported vehicle line there on their $1750 package - sparky! "OBD2_07 1996 - 97 Vortec Trucks (4.3L, 5.0L, 5.7L, 7.4L)"
    http://www.moates.net/rtobd2-all-com...age-p-117.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Jon S. View Post
    This comment shows that you know absolutely nothing about tuning. The OBD2 data stream in the Black Box PCM is missing parameters required to accurately tune the MAF Sensor, which are readily available in the later LS1 style PCMs (P01 or "0411").

    There are other parameters and tables that are of low resolution when compared to the later LS1 PCMs.

    You cannot tune a Black Box PCM to operate an engine as well as the LS1 style PCM can do it.
    I do know that with the minor changes I am planning, the black box will do fine. I already said the 0411 was a superior pcm. Not sure of why you are so sure about anything I know, but I am not impressed so far with what has come from your side of the screen.
    Last edited by don-f; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:14 PM.