GT500 Clone Project

[eficalibrator]

You are groping blindly in the dark. Please stop and find a way to get the ORIGINAL Roush tune in the EEC to start. The Roush file is the best starting point, period. It would include the right fuel injector data and a TON of background changes to ETC, IMRC, and other stuff that you're not going to be able to outsmart them on.

If all you changed was the pulley, exhaust, and MAF, it would have been an extremely easy fix for an experienced calibrator. This car shouldn't have needed custom head gaskets and lower compression if the tune hadn't been monkeyed with improperly. The "original" MAF curve you posted is certainly NOT a Roush curve since it has a noticable bump in the middle. If that was changed (incorrectly), God knows what else is wrong (perhaps someone got greedy with fuel or spark?) with the rest of the tune. Working from this multi-layer clusterfukc is only going to make your life harder.

You need to get the Roush file back into the PCM and work from there. After that, you'll need to solve for the new MAF curve for the Steeda CAI (unless someone is nice enough to hand out the Steeda transfer function), and make the usual changes for an off-road exhaust. After that, you need to ensure that the spark tables include the higher load values that this engine will see and that the actual spark values are appropriate. The change to lower compression probably made lots of areas less efficient than before, so you've now got work to do in both the MBT and Borderline tables. Enjoy.

After you get all that right, then you still have to ensure that the ETC safety checks work right to avoid a possible runaway condition with the higher power engine. DO NOT simply turn off the safety checks or increase the allowable wheel torque error. If it should happen to get in an accident, you would be liable for a LOT of potential damages if these are disabled. Properly calibrating the ETC controls is a several hour explanation and process not to be covered by a simple internet post. (Mr. Fox can confirm this since he just sat through the training a couple weeks ago.)

Unfortunately kids, this has turned into a lesson of how not to do things. Sorry.

[AJxtcman]

You are groping blindly in the dark. Please stop and find a way to get the ORIGINAL Roush tune in the EEC to start. The Roush file is the best starting point, period. It would include the right fuel injector data and a TON of background changes to ETC, IMRC, and other stuff that you're not going to be able to outsmart them on.

If all you changed was the pulley, exhaust, and MAF, it would have been an extremely easy fix for an experienced calibrator. This car shouldn't have needed custom head gaskets and lower compression if the tune hadn't been monkeyed with improperly. The "original" MAF curve you posted is certainly NOT a Roush curve since it has a noticable bump in the middle. If that was changed (incorrectly), God knows what else is wrong (perhaps someone got greedy with fuel or spark?) with the rest of the tune. Working from this multi-layer clusterfukc is only going to make your life harder.

You need to get the Roush file back into the PCM and work from there. After that, you'll need to solve for the new MAF curve for the Steeda CAI (unless someone is nice enough to hand out the Steeda transfer function), and make the usual changes for an off-road exhaust. After that, you need to ensure that the spark tables include the higher load values that this engine will see and that the actual spark values are appropriate. The change to lower compression probably made lots of areas less efficient than before, so you've now got work to do in both the MBT and Borderline tables. Enjoy.

After you get all that right, then you still have to ensure that the ETC safety checks work right to avoid a possible runaway condition with the higher power engine. DO NOT simply turn off the safety checks or increase the allowable wheel torque error. If it should happen to get in an accident, you would be liable for a LOT of potential damages if these are disabled. Properly calibrating the ETC controls is a several hour explanation and process not to be covered by a simple internet post. (Mr. Fox can confirm this since he just sat through the training a couple weeks ago.)

Unfortunately kids, this has turned into a lesson of how not to do things. Sorry.

Thank for the help. I hope you will continue to help.

Yes if I had the Roush tune I would be done or further along my way.

The fact is I don't have it.
Can I read a Roush?
I have been told that they are locked.
I use Wester's software and I can Lock it so it can't be read. Is this how a Roush is?

This car had the Roush tune removed before I got it. At least that is what the Ford tech told me.
How can I ID a Roush tune?

Yes this car is a Cluster. Yes the Tune is way off. It had Head Gasket failure before 4500 miles and possibly before Highline Purchased the car at 3800 miles. It had to spark plugs that were different.

If I crack the Throttle the Boost Gauge reads 5psi and then it starts to climb.

I have made some progress.

[RWTD]

Yes, you can read ANY Ford pcm. You can't lock them like a GM. You use Wester's software, and NOT HPT? Geezus, man, I need to slap you!

Now, look, Greg took the time to type what he did. He's a very busy man, as most of us are, so you need to listen to him, and I MEAN REALLY LISTEN TO HIM!

Call up Roush, tell them what is going on, and see if they will re-install their program in that pcm. I am pretty sure they will, but they may charge you for it (again). Maybe they will cut you some slack. But the only way you're going to get this Roush file is by calling them, getting them to flash that pcm, and then you getting it back and pulling that file off with HPT. I have multiple Roush files, but in SCT format. If I had the car here, I'd help you out and upload one of those into it, provided it's the same year as I have.

I'm sorry you wasted all your credits. I don't think you can blame that on your friend, however. Maybe he'll feel bad for you and work with you on them.

[AJxtcman]

I have been out of town for a few days. I had a death in the family and was out in Washington state.

[AJxtcman]

update on my progress.

I am under the impression this car had a P0171 in the car before I started.

The first Tune I assembled was -30% combined fuel trims. This was rich and it still pinged.

I have assemble a tune off the first tune incorporating GT500 retard specs.
This has stopped the pinging

My Fuel Trim are + 45% or more. No big deal. I can deal with that. The car runs just OK. Almost like it was when it came in.

I have a few more specs that I hope to get answers to today and then it will be off to dialing in the MAF

[RWTD]

AJxtcman, dude, you really ain't paying attention, are you?

Greg, one day someone is going to listen to you. Hell, even lil ole me backed you up!

[AJxtcman]

Sorry guy's for the delay of info

My Grandpa Passed away and the funeral was last Wednesday in Washington state. I live in Wisconsin so I was gone for a few days. Someone contacted me with a Roush tune with a 90mm Steeda CAI. When I got back in town I requested the tune.

Now the car has been at the dealership and my house. Before I left I took the car to work and parked it in my stall. We had some snow and the forecast was for more when I was gone. The car can't really be driven in the winter up here, so I had time to get this sorted out.

With the Email sent out for the request for the tune I returned to work on Friday to NO car.
The owner took it to a dyno shop and had it tuned. he dropped another $800+ and the numbers were way down.

I had talked to "Marv" and I wouldn't give him a dime. This car came in way way low on power. I don't think the guy really knows how to tune. He can load a "Can Tune" and play around with the MAF, but I don't think he does more than that.

Rumor has it the management wanted the car out of the shop because we had Snow on its way and all the Dealerships cars go in every open stall.

I havent even seen the car for more than 10 minutes and the Laptop was at home so I couldn't read the tune.

[AJxtcman]

AJxtcman, dude, you really ain't paying attention, are you?

Greg, one day someone is going to listen to you. Hell, even lil ole me backed you up!

Now for the great News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I compared the Roush Stage 3 with 90mm Steeda CAI to the Tune that came in the car. was this guy thinking.

You and Greg were 100% correct I needed a Roush tune.

I was working on getting correct #'s and verifying them before leaving for the funeral. My plan was to spend this week working on the car, but it is at the owners home in the garage

I just wanted the Injector flow first. That is why I called "Marv" and all I heard from him was HP tuner can tune a Ford. You have to use a SCT and he was a Pro Tuner. He spent 40 hours at SCT training school. He just lecture me on him self.

I just had 1 question and only 1 question I just wanted the flow rate!
He couldn't give it to me. It was a complete waste of an hour. I could get off the phone with him.

Guess what He tuned the car and it is way way way down on power. Like very low.



Now the owner wants a big throttle body and a big fuel pump added.

I don't think we will be able to drive the car for another 2 months

That means I have 2 months to work on it or just think about working on it.


Thanks everyone very much for giving me all the tunes.
You know if I would have had the 52# injectors like most of the tunes I got I would have been set. Thanks again.

I will post "Marv's" tune

[n0dih]

Is what AJ is fighting a bunch of stuff that HPT can't see in the cal file? Which would make total sense why he would need the Roush file.

Maybe wrong, but this is a GT500 clone, how do know Roush knows anything of it, would they even support it at all? If I took a 4.6L and tossed on a Roush M90 and and bunch of parts and it looked like one, doesn't mean it is one.

But at least getting to look at HPT for GM V6, it is sooo lacking stuff, I can see that if the Ford editing tool is that lacking, it would be no wonder that he can't tune it with HPT. And you would HAVE to get a Roush tune to just even get remotely close with all the hidden stuff that Ford has shared with Roush.

[PSYKOSTEVO]

I tuned the Roush tunes with HPTuners. Best version to use is Version 2.20 for that.

[n0dih]

I thought that Roush locked them?

[ElecTech]

Is what AJ is fighting a bunch of stuff that HPT can't see in the cal file? Which would make total sense why he would need the Roush file.

Maybe wrong, but this is a GT500 clone, how do know Roush knows anything of it, would they even support it at all? If I took a 4.6L and tossed on a Roush M90 and and bunch of parts and it looked like one, doesn't mean it is one.

But at least getting to look at HPT for GM V6, it is sooo lacking stuff, I can see that if the Ford editing tool is that lacking, it would be no wonder that he can't tune it with HPT. And you would HAVE to get a Roush tune to just even get remotely close with all the hidden stuff that Ford has shared with Roush.

I don't think the HPT Ford files are lacking that much, certainly not like the V6 files. The ford stuff I've looked at had tons of parameters. I haven't seen/read many complaints about lack of parameters.

I think what Greg was eluding to earlier is that the Roush file contains so many essential throttle tweaks and other tidbits that make the care behave like a production car, that AJ was going to have a tough time getting her dialed without that file to start with.

[Fox95]

Really????

This is a mess and I feel sorry for the guy who owns this car.

If you can't get the car tuned as it is, what makes you think your going to be able to tune it after adding in the element of a aftermarket throttle body? Do you know what it takes to tune the etc tables?

Dude, this is a disaster. This is not the car to try and learn to tune fords on.

There's enough data on the Internet to put in your injector values. If someone has to hold your hand with something that simple then you should consider giving the it to a professional.

Not trying to be a jackass at all, but sometimes you need to backup and concede to your abilities

I'm all about learning and trying new stuff but I try to do it on my own and my own vehicles.

[1998Ws6]

Don't waste your money on an aftermarket TB, unless you "know" the stocker is a restriction, do not waste your money.

I won't even get into the tuning issues, but throwing on aftermarket junk TB's to replace OEM hardware is never a solution for a basic bolt on FI kit car.

Ryan

[AJxtcman]

Really????

This is a mess and I feel sorry for the guy who owns this car.

If you can't get the car tuned as it is, what makes you think your going to be able to tune it after adding in the element of a aftermarket throttle body? Do you know what it takes to tune the etc tables?

Dude, this is a disaster. This is not the car to try and learn to tune fords on.

There's enough data on the Internet to put in your injector values. If someone has to hold your hand with something that simple then you should consider giving the it to a professional.

Not trying to be a jackass at all, but sometimes you need to backup and concede to your abilities

I'm all about learning and trying new stuff but I try to do it on my own and my own vehicles.

The car has a Roush Tune via SCT and a Ford Dyno shop in it now.
BTW it was low on the numbers.

I have another Roush tune and Steeda CAI added to it that was emailed to me.

Hey guys we have had snow up here in Wisconsin and I have been out of town on 2 trips in the last 2 weeks. I have only seen the car for a few minutes in the last two weeks.

I just got back to day from South Carolina and I am headed back down on Friday.

I don't think I will have time to touch this car for about another 2 months.

[Fox95]

You've eluded many times in this thread as this car was "low" on the numbers

what exactly does that mean?

I typically see 3v gt's with a saleen or roush blower and 7-8psi of boost make 425-450hp range.

You've also mentioned that the car has a roush tune via sct/ford shop in it, so what does that mean? are you saying you think that's a problem?

Sct converted files are not bad when used properly, but the sct tune is not what you should be starting with anyway if your using HPtuners... If there's an sct handheld tuner with this car, return the car back to stock and use the stock ford cal and enter in all the appropriate values that the cars needs for tuning. If the ecm was really programmed by roush and the the configuration of parts you have still matchs roush's criteria for the tune they flashed in it, then I'd bet whats in my pocket that's it right, or at least pretty damn close, and may only need slightly tweaked on open fueling and maybe a few other other minor things.

There's no special "magic" in a roush tune, or sct tune. They all do the same thing.

Again Please don't take my posts the wrong way, personally I'd like to help, and it appears as though others would too.

But, it doesn't seem possible for several reasons,

First you come into a ford specific forum, and start off by calling fords P.O.S.'s and trying to talk the owner out of buying it etc...

Second, in another post you made the statement "the fuel trims are off by 45%, no big deal".....? you've missed the tune by almost 50% percent maybe even more as the computer can't try to correct past 45%...

So these two things alone say alot the situation.

You're never going to get help if your not specific with details.

[AJxtcman]

Hey Ben The car came to me from Flint with a bad tune and bad head Gaskets. It went to a Ford Dealer and they said it had a P0171 or it was a P0174, I don't remember. When we picked up the car it didn't have a Check engine light on, so I am taking the techs word on that. He also told me it was lean on both banks.

The Original Tune that was in the car when the Owner Purchased the car was LEAN.

I installed YOUR Tune and it was rich, but not DTC setting rich. Your injector rate was higher than the one that came in the car. The car still pinged

I read a lot about the recalibrating the MAF and played around with it for about 3 days.

I really didn't spend much time on the car after that. I tried to get a Roush file and Roush information.

I was out of town the week before last and the car went to the place the Ford Dealer uses to tune the cars. I got back in on Saturday and the car was tuned by "Marv"

Saturday Afternoon I got a Roush file from another HP Tuners member

I have not touched this car in quite awhile. OK

This is his Dyno #'s
395hp & 365 ft lbs

I plan on reading the Dyno Tuned PCM today

[AJxtcman]

$800 "Marv Tune"
Just if you want to look at it and it still pings, but not very bad. 80% better.
Attachment 15888

[n0dih]

Any datalogging yet? Curious on WHY it is pinging? With temps like we have up north...

Does it not have enough bandwidth to quench the knock? How much KR is allowed? How much ~should~ be allowed?

[AJxtcman]

Any datalogging yet? Curious on WHY it is pinging? With temps like we have up north...

Does it not have enough bandwidth to quench the knock? How much KR is allowed? How much ~should~ be allowed?

Hey rice man. lol
Highline is finally talking about a smaller pulley.
I guess Marv told him that it built boost very rapid. Marv was surprised that it had 5 psi if you cracked the throttle. Hmmmmm
I think Marv told him it had 12 psi max, but he might have said 11 psi.
Highline wants to or has purchased a AFCO heat exchanger.

When I pulled the car out of my stall the other mourning it was 6° outside and the car was not up to operating temp. I decided to take it up the the corner and back. The roads were clear of ice. I I wouldn't loose it yeah right. I snapped the throttle and heard the very light ping when I was pulling out of the dealerships parking lot. I turned around at the corner and headed back. I nailed the gas say 1/2 to 3/4 throttle and it pinged

I know what it took to get rid of the knock in the car before. I may try it, but He now has a SCT programmer and we are going to monitor KV before we do anything. HPT's scanner doesn't have knock or I am to stupid to find it. Oh wait I remember now I am not stupid Ford knock sensors PIDs

I have a remote start to install today for a guy in parts and then I am off to South Carolina again for a week. I will not get to touch the car for over a week. If I get back and the roads are icy it will be a month or so. Like I have been saying.

Rice I will Tell Jodie hi from you.

BTW I am going down to read the "Locked/Copyrighted" Turbo Northstar PCM. Thanks again
Oh yeah I hope to fix it in a matter of minutes.

A Chevy guy tuning a Northstar
I guess that is like Marv saying a Ford guy has to tune a Ford.