GT500 Clone Project

[AJxtcman]

Not knowing Fords at all, I am curious how transient fueling on a Ford is handled.

Like the a little older GM cars/trucks where once you entered PE mode (the TPS threshold for PE) it would jump to SD mode momentarily (I have proven this for those who are wondering), and the newer GM cars use the Transisent Airflow Calculation Alogrithm (at least my L67 3800 SC does) and doesn't jump over to the VE anymore unless the MAF has failed.

So wondering what Ford does. Is the problem that AJ is having where it is going lean on tip in is whatever is setup for the PE mode or enrichment mode (whatever Ford calls it) is not setup properly?

Just wondering! And why would the Rouch tune not cover that accurately?

Set up a histogram to log STFT's into the maf transfer table, or use wbo2 output logged into the maf histgram for your initial tuning.

Make sure if your using wbo2 and logging this in your maf histo, that, your in open loop and adaptive fueling off, and your base fuel table is set to the proper afr's that your shooting for.

If your tuning with STFT's then don't go forced open loop, just log the stft's in the maf histo and apply those to only to about 0v - 2.2v becuase once you've exceeded somewhere around 2 volts you'll be going open loop and you'll need the wbo2 for tuning.

Preferably the best way is to go open loop and only off a wb for all dialing in your maf curve.

The load with failed maf tables are similar to ve tables but not really. and you tune these tables after you've dialed in your maf transfer.

Set up a histogram to log "load" in the load with failed maf tables and input those values directly in after you've filled the histograms.

with these tables tuned correctly, it helps with transient fueling as the tables are taken into account for fueling predictions.

Do this first then worry abuot all your spark timing, etc.. for later when you've mastered the maf curve.

The HP scanner makes tuning a breeze, it's such a powerful tool that I have no clue why others (tuning software manufactures) haven't caught on yet.

How does that Look N0DIH?

[eficalibrator]

#1 I am in a Reformulated Fuel area. This is more that just E10.

Maybe change the Stoich?

Stoich for e10 is roughly 14.13:1 Change THIS first before doing any real work on MAF xfer.

#2 The car has been to 3 Dyno shops and this condition has always been present.

Maybe I should change the engine size? Ben posted that this is a trick with blower cars

Set the displacement scalar to the exact correct value. It is NOT the right way to address transient fueling and can screw up spark timing and other goodies (like ETC) if you lie to it.

#3 Am I looking at this too soon. The MAF Transfer is just starting to take shape.

Nail the MAF xfer (with the right stoich), then hit the "load w/failed MAF" table. Getting these two right is the majority of transient (tip-in) fueling issues.

[AJxtcman]

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Stoich for e10 is roughly 14.13:1 Change THIS first before doing any real work on MAF xfer.


Set the displacement scalar to the exact correct value. It is NOT the right way to address transient fueling and can screw up spark timing and other goodies (like ETC) if you lie to it.


Nail the MAF xfer (with the right stoich), then hit the "load w/failed MAF" table. Getting these two right is the majority of transient (tip-in) fueling issues.

Thank You So Much Greg.
The guys that have taken your advanced courses have really helped. I need to take care of them!
I am on the correct path. I don't have my Stoich set correctly. The PCM adjust the Fuel Trim to = 14.7 yet. I know this because I am using the Zeitronix's AFR gauge and the DiabloSport Hand Held to get my fuel trim readings to adjust my MAF xfer. I have been waiting for the fuel trim number to get steady when the AFR is steady and that has been 14.7
I thought that was strange
??? Should the AFR be set to 14.7 at Cruise? This is the MAF xfer adjusting range correct? ???

Like I said the car is a blast to drive I have made huge steps. Thanks again Ben and James

[AJxtcman]

This is adjusted at Cruise NO Load Correct? The Curve is looking good. No More bumps

This I have not touched other than the initial setup per instructions and or posted info


This I adjusted per Posted info


Thanks Greg I think I see what I need to do to the Fuel Base.

[RWTD]

OBD2 Purge Monitor Test Enabled : Disabled
OBD2 O2 Test Enabled : Disabled
OBD2 Misfire Test Enabled : Disabled
OBD2 Purge Monitor MIL Enabled : Disabled
OBD2 Misfire MIL Enabled : Disabled

Edit: This isn't directed at you AJxtcman, but rather Marv:

Dude, WTF? Why in the hell is Purge disabled? Do you know what happens when you disable this? THE ADAPTIVE STRATEGY NO LONGER WORKS AND THE CAR WILL STAY IN OPEN LOOP! That's right, NO MORE fuel trim correction. If the EVAP system has been deleted (hopefully not), then there is 1 right way to adjust in the pcm to keep the purge system from throwing codes, thus preventing the non-learning. Unfortunately, HPT doesn't have this ability in the software for the end-user (only SCT does, that I know of).

Furthermore, why in the hell are the misfire tests disabled?

[RWTD]

Stoich for e10 is roughly 14.13:1 Change THIS first before doing any real work on MAF xfer.

Greg, sadly, HPT does NOT have the stoich scalar in the Ford software, and it's not a "high priority" for them. It's on their "to do" list, after I brought it up to them.

[AJxtcman]

Edit: This isn't directed at you AJxtcman, but rather Marv:

Dude, WTF? Why in the hell is Purge disabled? Do you know what happens when you disable this? THE ADAPTIVE STRATEGY NO LONGER WORKS AND THE CAR WILL STAY IN OPEN LOOP! That's right, NO MORE fuel trim correction. If the EVAP system has been deleted (hopefully not), then there is 1 right way to adjust in the pcm to keep the purge system from throwing codes, thus preventing the non-learning. Unfortunately, HPT doesn't have this ability in the software for the end-user (only SCT does, that I know of).

Furthermore, why in the hell are the misfire tests disabled?

Actually I think that was the Original Tune that was in the car that had all of that disabled. Remember it pinged sooooooo bad. Thanks James I hadn't really looked at that tune in that way. I was comparing the number of non emissions changes, but now I see it for more.

[AJxtcman]

I am working at it. It being the tune. The last few nights I haven't done to much.

I am about to load this and then start back in on the MAF xfer

Can I buy you a beer or 2 James? Can I send you a little something? Do you take Pay-Pal?

[AJxtcman]

When I was tuning the GMC for the S/C the other day I had the wrong injector settings. I searched the stock injector numbers on the web and found that they were 44# injectors. The new injectors were also 44# injetcors. I found that the stock injectors were really 22# injectors. As I was tuning the MAF with the wrong injectors in settings the truck ran just like the Mustang. Hmmmmmmm. Oh I corrected the injector seeting and returned the MAF and I was good as gold.

I pulled an injector out of the Mustang and nothing comes up for the numbers that are on the injectors. I did find some information that is 3rd party on the part number and they stated that they are 38# injectors per Roush.

one of the other injectors popped out and when I slid it in the rail nicked the seal. Can't find any information on the injectors. Can't find a seal.

60# injectors are on the way

[AJxtcman]

This is the old injector
It is 54mm from end to end
It is very short.
Sorry for the bad pictures.

Numbers on the injectors. They are Delphi Multec 3.5
N166C
C4B
25386328









Does anyone have any specs on these?

[AJxtcman]

Those Injectors are not 38# or 39#.

I installed the 60# injectors scaled them correctly, (think) Reset the MAF xfer back to the DBX settings and the car runs much better. I pulled 10% off below 1.09 volts on the MAF xfer and the fuel trim and the fuel trims look great. Still tip in lean, but I can fix that now.

With the other injectors I was removing about 40% on the low side of the MAF xfer.

for the LU60 injectors I set the Low flow to 71.19310 and the High flow to 59.87710. Does this look good?

[RWTD]

You can NOT just be putting in slope data only!!!, and scaling is absolutely WRONG!
(that's GM "newb" mentality that's unfortunately spread rampant through the internet over the years)

You need to be using ALL the values supplied from Ford Racing for those injectors. See here:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...-9593-lu60.pdf

Also, you need to go to "Fuel System, Desired Injector Pressure Drop" and change the entire table to show "39.15", as well as do the same to the "Injector Pressure Drop Adder" table. The reason you do this is because the injectors you have flow plenty enough of fuel at 39.15 #/hr without having to raise pressure up to meet demand.

[RWTD]

Edit: I had the Flow Rate High and Low values crossed. I've corrected the data below.


Here, I'll do all the work for you, since some of the data is listed differently between Ford Racing's and HPT's (and SCT's). FWIW, you can copy/paste ALL of these values below to save on time. Once you input all these values properly, DO NOT TOUCH THEM EVER AGAIN! Trust me on this. The only thing you'll have to do for fueling is adjust the MAF transfer. Pay attention, and trust me on this.

Siemens Deka 60# Injectors
(data below is for use in HPT format)

Flow Rate Low: 63.1872

Flow Rate High: 60.26760

Breakpoint: 0.0000336300
Note: You will need the latest beta of HPT in order to input this value, otherwise 2.22x will round up the data in this parameter, and you do NOT want this to happen!

PW Minimum: 0.94985963
Note: Ford Racing's data will have you use 1.391. HPT's 2.23 Beta is currently only allowing for a max of 1.0. I'll send a bug report to HPT to fix this. HOWEVER, many of us tuners have found that 0.94985963 works better for these injectors you're using anyway.

Pressure Drop Ref: 39.15

For the next 3 parameters, you're going to have to click the (psi) label and modify the values as I have listed below.

Flow Rate High Mult vs. Pressure:

PSI

20.010
30.020
39.150
50.030
54.960
60.030

Mult

0.71700
0.87470
1.00000
1.13220
1.18480
1.23830

Flow Rate Low Mult vs. Pressure:

PSI

20.010
30.020
39.150
50.030
54.960
60.030

Mult

0.71490
0.87560
1.00000
1.10410
1.18480
1.23830

Offset Mult vs. Pressure:

PSI

20.010
30.020
39.150
44.950
50.030
54.960
60.030

Mult

0.71490
0.87560
1.00000
1.07690
1.07910
1.18480
1.23830

This next parameter you will not need to modify the voltages. I just listed them for others who may need the information in the future.

Offset vs. Voltage:

Volts

6.000
7.000
8.000
9.000
10.000
11.000
12.000
13.000
13.500
14.000
14.500
15.000

PW Offset

0.0025900
0.0020155
0.0014410
0.0011810
0.0009210
0.0007580
0.0006360
0.0005180
0.0004635
0.0004090
0.0003605
0.0003120

Last, unfortunately, HPT is missing an important parameter (another function). If you look at the Ford Racing (FRPP) calibration data I linked you to, you will see a parameter called "FNPW_BKCOMP" (SCT calls it "Fuel Inj Breakpoint Multiplier FordeltaP"). This is a "Multiplier to FUEL_BKPT as a function of injection pressure in psid". I'm guessing HPT will label it as "Breakpoint Multiplier vs. Pressure". I am going to link them to this thread in hopes that they will add it in on the next beta. Until then, you'll just have to go with what I said. It's not really going to affect you much, however, as we're not raising DeltaP past 39.15 anyway.

[RWTD]

Also, if you need all the supercharged Roush injector values, I can get those posted up in HPT format, as well, but I'm thinking there may already be a Roush file in the repository. FWIW, the Roush injector flows roughly 38.80079872906212 #/hr.

[AJxtcman]

Here, I'll do all the work for you.

Thanks for the input. Can I send you something?

Once you input all these values properly, DO NOT TOUCH THEM EVER AGAIN!

Flow Rate Low: 60.26760

Flow Rate High: 63.1872

PW Minimum: 0.94985963



PW Offset

0.0025900
0.0020155
0.0014410
0.0011810
0.0009210
0.0007580
0.0006360
0.0005180
0.0004635
0.0004090
0.0003605
0.0003120

Last, unfortunately, HPT is missing an important parameter (another function). If you look at the Ford Racing (FRPP) calibration data I linked you to, you will see a parameter called "FNPW_BKCOMP" (SCT calls it "Fuel Inj Breakpoint Multiplier FordeltaP"). This is a "Multiplier to FUEL_BKPT as a function of injection pressure in psid". I'm guessing HPT will label it as "Breakpoint Multiplier vs. Pressure". I am going to link them to this thread in hopes that they will add it in on the next beta. Until then, you'll just have to go with what I said. It's not really going to affect you much, however, as we're not raising DeltaP past 39.15 anyway.

Every thing is good except what is in the red.

why is the FNPW Offset different?
I just rescaled mine per a post of your and Ford Racing the data sheet by .001

[RWTD]

If you look at the Offset in HPT, it's listed in thousandths. If you look at it in Ford Racing's data, it's listed in ms (milliseconds). It's the same thing, just in how it "appears" is different. To convert ms to thousandths you multiply by 0.001 (as you read in my other post), or divide by 1000. So the data I gave you above was already multiplied, so just copy/paste it into HPT. Hopefully you understand what I'm saying. Please let me know, if not.

Also, since they were in red, were you confused by the values I gave you for the Flow Rate Low (63.1872), Flow Rate High (60.26760), and the PW Minimum (0.94985963)?

[AJxtcman]

If you look at the Offset in HPT, it's listed in thousandths. If you look at it in Ford Racing's data, it's listed in ms (milliseconds). It's the same thing, just in how it "appears" is different. To convert ms to thousandths you multiply by 0.001 (as you read in my other post), or divide by 1000. So the data I gave you above was already multiplied, so just copy/paste it into HPT. Hopefully you understand what I'm saying. Please let me know, if not.

Also, since they were in red, were you confused by the values I gave you for the Flow Rate Low (60.26760), Flow Rate High (63.1872), and the PW Minimum (0.94985963)?

the Items in the RED were the only parameters that you posted that I didn't already match

This is what I came up with from the Ford racing spec sheet
I came up with
Flow Rate High 71.19311 lb/hr
Flow Rate Low 59.87710 lb/hr
PW Min 1.391 ms per sheet

My Injector Offset is listed as msec
PW Offset
.002590
.001144
.000921
.000758
.000636
.000518
.000409
.000312

Like I said above my off set is listed as (ms), but the the numbers didn't look correct when I entered them in dirrectly from the sheet and the car didn't want to run. That is when I recaled them by .001
The original numbers were .00XXX and that made sense to me.

The high flow and low flow rate numbers.
I had a know good injector numbers in HPT for a different Ford Racing injector and used the spec sheet for that injector to find the ratios to munltiply the given specs from the 60# spec sheet. That is how I came up with the number, but I was just hoping it was correct.

I did the firework thing last night so I will change the data this morning.
Thanks James for all the help

[RWTD]

Not a prob, and you're welcome.

FYI, in order to figure out the #/hr for the High and Low Slopes from the Ford Racing spec sheet, just multiply them by 3600. So, yeah, definitely use the Flow Rate High of 60.26760 and Flow Rate Low of 63.1872.

I've personally tested FRPP's PW Min of 1.391 ms, and it's not stable on the EEC-V vehicles, but seems to work fine on the PowerPC vehicles. However, the 0.94985963 value I gave you works perfectly fine as well, and like I said, HPT doesn't allow higher than 1.0 ms anyway (I still need to report that to HPT, so that can rectify it).

[RWTD]

Edit: I had the Flow Rate High and Low values crossed. I've corrected the data in my post #133 & #136. Please make sure you use the correct values.

[AJxtcman]

Edit: I had the Flow Rate High and Low values crossed. I've corrected the data in my post #133 & #136. Please make sure you use the correct values.

I was wondering about that.