Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 140

Thread: Wideband Accuracy: Facts & Issues

  1. #1
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Mobile, AL & Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    2,045

    Wideband Accuracy: Facts & Issues

    I thought I'd share this information given on ModularFords.com by David Darge of Powertrain Electronics.

    http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...91#post1225791
    (post #84)

    Quote Originally Posted by AFR Pro
    Air Fuel Ratio Reference Information: Posted 9/25/08

    There appears to be a great amount of confusion in the area of air fuel ratio (AFR) meter readings and accuracy. This issue is very simple and straight forward when facts are presented and opinions are not used. Hello to all who read this post as this is David Darge from Powertrain Electronics. My experience and background started in 1985 with being the only USA technical engineer for Horiba Instruments. Horiba held the first UEGO sensor patent (1978) and manufactured the world’s first AFR analyzer called MEXA-101 in 1985. This analyzer being the only solution and early on as over 500 units were purchased by GM, Ford and Chrysler for $10,300 each. I also worked at Whipple Industries and with Kenny-Bell for the past 16 years and have experience using AFR data for well over 6000 hours. In 1998 we decided to market the AFM1000 which is AFR analyzer that is OEM industry tested and recommend by Kenne-Bell and considered a standard by many professionals.

    Last year we helped with a test of many AFR meters/analyzers at Westec Performance engine dyno where 10-sensors were installed into a single exhaust collector. All of the data was recorded by Opto-22 (a world leader in data acquisition systems) on a 16-bit DAQ system with isolated channels to prevent any possible offsets caused by ground loops. The reference analyzer selected was the ECM Model 4800 manufactured and supplied by the world wide leader of analyzers. The Model 4800 ($12,000) is used and certified by GM, Ford, Chrysler, EPA and validated by NGK the sensor manufacturer. In fact GM high performance engine assembly plant uses 12 of the 4800’s to test every LS7 or now the LS9 engines everyday. The below test data shows to be very interesting as each meter was tested at various AFR’s while monitoring the EGT and battery voltage throughout each test. The complete test data to be posted soon as below is listed a single test at 12.30 AFR. When tested at 10.50 AFR some of the meters showed richer not leaner as indicated by the data below.

    Data averaged (200 samples)

    Delta from master
    AFR Analyzer AFR
    12.30 ECM4800 0.00

    12.27 AFM1000 -0.02
    13.05 PLX M300 +0.75

    13.02 Innovate LC1 +0.72
    13.34 DynoJet Commander +1.05

    12.80 FAST A/F Meter +0.50
    12.74 PLX R500 +0.44

    1097 EGT (deg F)
    13.81 Battery (volts)

    FAST is a trademark of Competition Performance
    Dynojet Commander is a trademark of Dynojet

    As you can see most of the meters show an AFR leaner from the reference analyzer. The values range from 1.05 AFR leaner to 0.02 AFR richer. The data was averaged to take out any single sample error. In fact in the past we experienced more than one AFR meter reading drifted from 1.0 to 2.0 AFR’s plus or minus over time. This makes it impossible for anyone to predict the actual AFR error based on time or previous experience. Some dyno operators claim they can calculate the AFR error and make a correction factor based on time but this is not feasible. One of the AFR meter company warns to not use when the EGT is above 1330 deg F and then sometimes shuts down where the AFM1000 functions well to 1643 deg F. The AFM1000 will provide repeatability of 0.5% over the life time of the sensor with accuracy of better than 1.5% when the air calibration procedure is performed.

    The AFR Meter Shootout article in Ford Muscle Magazine is not a true test because a reference analyzer was not used and errors could be caused when a common ground 8-bit data logger was used. Also it is not a proper procedure to hold a sensor near a calibration gas and expect to obtain a reference AFR. You may ask, How would I know that? Well while working at Horiba I wrote the calibration test procedure the automobile OEMs preformed on the MEXA101 and this procedure was not used for this AFR comparison test. Did you ever think, What if poorly rated analyzers were the most accurate and the best rated analyzers were the least accurate? How would you know if this was a valid test unless one included a reference analyzer that is certified in the USA and Europe such as the ECM 4800?

    There are many professionals such as Jim Bell at Kenne-Bell and many other professional Ford tuners or engine builders that recommend and trust AFR data provided the AFM1000 when the fuel is gasoline, ethanol or methanol. The AFM1000 uses the best NGK sensor, is validated, well engineered, manufactured and tested by the world wide leader in air fuel ratio analyzers. In fact the AFM1000 uses the same NGK laboratory grade UEGO sensor as the Horiba Mexa110 and the ECM 4800. If you depend on accurate AFR for your business or performance engine then I would recommend using the AFM1000 and trust the data from now on.
    As an addendum to this post, Mr. Darge has privately communicated that for the budget minded consumer and performance enthusiast, the NGK AFX (which is nothing more than an AFM-1600 with a modified display), tho not as accurate as an AFM-1000, is the best and most reliable of the "budget widebands" on the market. Although the AFX comes with a Bosch sensor by default, it is recommend to upgrade to the NTK sensor (approx. $150).
    Last edited by RWTD; 11-20-2008 at 01:40 AM.
    RWTD
    True Custom Tuning & Performance Parts Specialists!
    Custom Tuning: dynotune@rwtd.com

    Toys: '08 C6 LS3 / '03 SVT Cobra / '08 Harley Davidson Nightrod Special / '11 Chevy Duramax

  2. #2
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Altanta, Ga
    Posts
    35

    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post


    As an addendum to this post, Mr. Darge has privately communicated that for the budget minded consumer and performance enthusiast, the NGK AFX (which is nothing more than an AFM-1600 with a modified display), tho not as accurate as an AFM-1000, is the best and most reliable of the "budget widebands" on the market. Although the AFX comes with a Bosch sensor by default, it is recommend to upgrade to the NTK sensor (approx. $150).
    I have been very pleased with my AFX thus far. Aside from constantly having to slightly alter my HPT equation to match the display, it has been consistent as hell. The unit is hardwired and I just calibrated it yesterday after constant use for ~ 2 months. The calibration was still dead on.

    Did he happen to hint at the average accuracy of the AFX unit?
    New - 08 C6 Z06 - intake only - 478whp/446wtq
    RIP- 08 C6 6spd - 480whp/441wtq - Bolt-ons/Cam

  3. #3
    Senior Tuner S2H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Schexnayder Racing - Arnaudville LA
    Posts
    4,385
    the whole reason I switched to my NGK AFX was becasue I was having issues with My LC1...
    and then I also found out about that article and several others that all said the NGK AFX was the most accurate of the "budget" widebands
    -Scott - Formerly Known as "soundengineer"
    Schexnayder Racing
    Engines, Transmissions, Tuning, Injector flowing and testing
    www.schexnayderracing.com
    or Find us on Facebook


    Dont forget to Check out Progress on my RaceCar
    Project Blasphemy

  4. #4
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    559
    I have the fast wideband.

    I'm not sure this article is right in saying that the wideband is .50 off ALL OF THE TIME. In their test it was off by .50

    You would be stupid to say "Oh it's off by .50 so I'll just know that 13.0 will read as 13.5".

    Not the case...
    2012 Chevy Cruze A6 1LT RS

    Formerly - 2004 GTO, 2002 Z28, 2007 Colorado, 2008 Silverado

  5. #5
    be good to know if the delta is linear or non-linear. At least the bugdet sensors seems to get it wrong on the safe side
    I count sheep in hex...

  6. #6
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Mobile, AL & Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    2,045
    Quote Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
    I have the fast wideband.

    I'm not sure this article is right in saying that the wideband is .50 off ALL OF THE TIME. In their test it was off by .50

    You would be stupid to say "Oh it's off by .50 so I'll just know that 13.0 will read as 13.5".

    Not the case...
    No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying that your wideband is not up to the task for being accurate. Like Chris said, at least it's on the safe side at that particular AFR. However, Mr. Darge said that when they ran the testing richer, some went opposite (showed richer than it really was).

    Eventually Mr. Darge will release the rest of the test results, like he said he would (if you read that). I'm going to get Eric at ModularFords to press him to come back and post for everyone.
    Last edited by RWTD; 11-20-2008 at 06:43 PM.
    RWTD
    True Custom Tuning & Performance Parts Specialists!
    Custom Tuning: dynotune@rwtd.com

    Toys: '08 C6 LS3 / '03 SVT Cobra / '08 Harley Davidson Nightrod Special / '11 Chevy Duramax

  7. #7
    Супер Модератор EC_Tune's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Almost 2000 feet.
    Posts
    7,877
    James,
    Good info, I had the pleasure of meeting Dave Darge when I was at Edelbrock. And yes we had a Horiba 8 channel AFR for dyno use and the AFM 1000 for chassis dyno testing. And yes the AFM 1000 is a very nice piece as well.

    Thinking about getting the Lambda Pro from ECM. (It's just $$$ right?)
    Always Support Our Troops!

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner eficalibrator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    943
    Quote Originally Posted by EC_Tune View Post
    Thinking about getting the Lambda Pro from ECM. (It's just $$$ right?)
    I hear that's what all the cool kids have.

    On the bright side, you'll never have to rationalize your choice of equipment when there's a question of accuracy.

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Mobile, AL & Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    2,045
    Quote Originally Posted by EC_Tune View Post
    Thinking about getting the Lambda Pro from ECM. (It's just $$$ right?)
    Heck, you're right, it's only $$$, haha. If you get one, I'll get one. Lemme know, and maybe we can talk Dave into a discount, haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by eficalibrator View Post
    I hear that's what all the cool kids have. .
    RWTD
    True Custom Tuning & Performance Parts Specialists!
    Custom Tuning: dynotune@rwtd.com

    Toys: '08 C6 LS3 / '03 SVT Cobra / '08 Harley Davidson Nightrod Special / '11 Chevy Duramax

  10. #10
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    I thought I'd share this information given on ModularFords.com by David Darge of Powertrain Electronics.

    http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...91#post1225791
    (post #84)



    As an addendum to this post, Mr. Darge has privately communicated that for the budget minded consumer and performance enthusiast, the NGK AFX (which is nothing more than an AFM-1600 with a modified display), tho not as accurate as an AFM-1000, is the best and most reliable of the "budget widebands" on the market. Although the AFX comes with a Bosch sensor by default, it is recommend to upgrade to the NTK sensor (approx. $150).
    Whats the cheapest place to buy an AFX and a NTK sensor? Any idea how close to the AFM1000 this will be in accuracy?


    Is this what i want? http://www.frsport.com/NGK-AFX-Power...or_p_2315.html
    Last edited by proggod; 11-23-2008 at 06:42 PM.

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner jackedupcanyon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    North Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    295
    Can you get the AFX with a NTK sensor? Thought it only came with the bosch? I see that the link says NTK wideband oxygen sensor on it. Think that would be a good price if it actually is an NTK sensor.

    Anybody on HPT a NGK AFX reseller? Rather give my business to someone from the forum.
    Steve

    2007 GMC Canyon Z71-4x4 | 3.7 I5-Auto | 4" Skyjacker suspension lift | 3" Performance Accessories body lift | 33x11.5x17 tires (going 35x12.5x17) | 3.73 gears | 57 K&N | BPi VS | AMS EaAU 6081 | SSK MAF Adapter | NGK AFX w/ NTK WBO2 | AMSoil fluids

  12. #12
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by jackedupcanyon View Post
    Can you get the AFX with a NTK sensor? Thought it only came with the bosch? I see that the link says NTK wideband oxygen sensor on it. Think that would be a good price if it actually is an NTK sensor.

    Anybody on HPT a NGK AFX reseller? Rather give my business to someone from the forum.
    Yes a bunch of stores show it as with the NTK sensor, infact I found one place for $240..

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Mobile, AL & Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    2,045
    Quote Originally Posted by proggod View Post
    Yes a bunch of stores show it as with the NTK sensor, infact I found one place for $240..
    Geezus, that's cheap. I just found the instruction manual and the part # it gives for the sensor is NTK. Hell, just the sensor is $150 to $160 bucks new on average.

    http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/352

    Here's the manual:

    http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/pdf/AFX...ual_REV_06.pdf

    See page 9.
    RWTD
    True Custom Tuning & Performance Parts Specialists!
    Custom Tuning: dynotune@rwtd.com

    Toys: '08 C6 LS3 / '03 SVT Cobra / '08 Harley Davidson Nightrod Special / '11 Chevy Duramax

  14. #14
    Advanced Tuner jackedupcanyon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    North Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by proggod View Post
    Yes a bunch of stores show it as with the NTK sensor, infact I found one place for $240..
    Any link to the $240 and the NTK? Guess I am looking in all the wrong places. Everything I find has the bosch sensor. Thanks!
    Steve

    2007 GMC Canyon Z71-4x4 | 3.7 I5-Auto | 4" Skyjacker suspension lift | 3" Performance Accessories body lift | 33x11.5x17 tires (going 35x12.5x17) | 3.73 gears | 57 K&N | BPi VS | AMS EaAU 6081 | SSK MAF Adapter | NGK AFX w/ NTK WBO2 | AMSoil fluids

  15. #15
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Altanta, Ga
    Posts
    35
    I bought my AFX roughly 4 months ago and it came with the Bosch sensor.
    New - 08 C6 Z06 - intake only - 478whp/446wtq
    RIP- 08 C6 6spd - 480whp/441wtq - Bolt-ons/Cam

  16. #16
    Senior Tuner 5_Liter_Eater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    3,970
    A quick Google for NGK AFX and the cheapest I see is $259 (with the Bosch sensor).

    http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/357
    Bill Winters

    Former owner/builder/tuner of the FarmVette
    Out of the LSx tuning game

  17. #17
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    33
    The $240 was a bait and switch, however I ordered one today for $289.. They told me it definitely had the NTK sensor. I will know in the morning. I told them to fedex overnight it. I plan to do a comparison with my LC1 to see if they really do read different.

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner jackedupcanyon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    North Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by proggod View Post
    The $240 was a bait and switch, however I ordered one today for $289.. They told me it definitely had the NTK sensor. I will know in the morning. I told them to fedex overnight it. I plan to do a comparison with my LC1 to see if they really do read different.
    Let us know if it indeed shipped with the NTK sensor. Might be ordering a new WB today.
    Steve

    2007 GMC Canyon Z71-4x4 | 3.7 I5-Auto | 4" Skyjacker suspension lift | 3" Performance Accessories body lift | 33x11.5x17 tires (going 35x12.5x17) | 3.73 gears | 57 K&N | BPi VS | AMS EaAU 6081 | SSK MAF Adapter | NGK AFX w/ NTK WBO2 | AMSoil fluids

  19. #19
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by jackedupcanyon View Post
    Let us know if it indeed shipped with the NTK sensor. Might be ordering a new WB today.
    Wish that UPS man would hurry up and get here

  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner jackedupcanyon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    North Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    295
    Damn that UPS man......Guess you should have shipped FedEx!
    Steve

    2007 GMC Canyon Z71-4x4 | 3.7 I5-Auto | 4" Skyjacker suspension lift | 3" Performance Accessories body lift | 33x11.5x17 tires (going 35x12.5x17) | 3.73 gears | 57 K&N | BPi VS | AMS EaAU 6081 | SSK MAF Adapter | NGK AFX w/ NTK WBO2 | AMSoil fluids