Did u set up ur actuator or did u jus bolt it on??? If there not set up right sometime wastegate DC of 0 see 20 pounds of boost
Did u set up ur actuator or did u jus bolt it on??? If there not set up right sometime wastegate DC of 0 see 20 pounds of boost
06 F6 typhoon, DEKA 60lb, walbro intank, 12psi actuator, 36mm ported internal gate, dump, cat, plazmaman 1100hp cooler and plenum kit... 348RWKW....(SOLD) SAVE FUEL TUNE LEAN AND REMEMBER PING IS POWER!!!*********MASSIVE THANKS TO ROB @ MONSTA TORQUE*******
The instructions were to bolt up the wastegate, i did check the opening pressure which was at about 12 psi, im thinking that the wastegate swing valve may need upgrading.Originally Posted by lukearmstrong
We may fit an external gate to cure the problem, it seems more practical and cost effective this way.
Cheers mate.
i have used externals in the past to cure over boost problems,
Just read alot of stuff here!! You guys should be setting your base fuel table and then adjusting the Injector high slope to correspond to the base fuel table value. If you just change the base fuel table you will be changing the spark the engine sees as there is a "spark adder for AFR" table which can get very aggressive at rich mixtures. It will add upto 12.5 degrees!!!
In regards to the deka scaling start with 68.4 as your high slope. In regards to the large low slope, that's caused by excessive deadtime values. You need to drop your low slope (start at ~90) and then lower your Battey Offset table. Factory is 1.047ms @ 14v. Use the Ford Racing Parts calibration summary for the 60's but you need to scale those up from what's recommended for 4bar base. It took me 36 calibrations to get my fuel trims within 1% so enjoy :-) The magic number for 14v is somewhere between 0.5 and 1ms. This will ensure you don't get a rich start-up when fuel is open loop and it's not pig rich at the break point. Oh and you can use a higher breakpoint than that used for the 968's which seems to be the norm.
Thats the same as LS3s with e38, all you do is zero the spark adder for afr so you dont add more timing on richer mixtures for blown engines.
Yeah i never zero this table out as it does have benefits, I simply make changes from 0.85 to 0.7 lambda as this is the area where you can run into trouble. Infact all spark adder and modifier tables should be looked at ESPECIALLY when you modify the x and y values of the boarderline knock table. For example when you do this your MBT spark (not important on the I6turbo) and modifier to BKT for cam angle are affected. I'm fussy so i go through and make sure all tables are as they should and then are calibrated to my liking.
Hi Guy's,
I've been following this thread for a while now & have tuned l67 & ls1's, but are quite impressed by the xr6T's(360 rwKw & the like's)
I just picked 1 up last night & drove it home(9 hour drive & got a bit of a feel for it! lol), it has nothing done to it at all completely factory stock tune(identical as 1 I got off another car) & it has a weird surging sensation on decel(cruise with foot off accel) & then it had the same surge at very light throttle under 80kmh!
I just quickly made a few adjustments on tune from what I Had seen around & felt a lot smoother but couldn't hear the turbo whine as much!
There's a lot to look at desired boost & waste gate duty cycle what makes the main difference, what boost can I run without changing actuator & fuel pump & injectors?
I'll attach both tunes & tell me what you think & what are the best mod's to make without bolt one's first & then with bolt on's? if possible?
Cheers Grant LS1
Limit yourself to 10psi to be safe. 12 absolute max without an injector upgrade. You have three options with boost control. 1) closed loop; 2) open loop; 3) aftermarket.
I haven't got access to tuning software infront of me, but off the top of my head you need to do the following:
OPEN LOOP: you need to zero the proportional gain multiplier table, zero all integral and proportional gains (on/off boost ect) and wastegate period. The wastegate boost FMEM (failure management effects mode) is set at a 50% reduction from factory so that needs to be set to zero reduction. All torque 12, 23 and 34 shift underboost need to be zero'd. P1227 limit (overboost) needs to be set to it's maximum. The over and underboost for open loop DC and the over and underboost for open loop DC error need to be maxed out
CLOSED LOOP: the system references a value from the wastegate duty cycle table, measures the boost, determines an error against the "desired boost table" and then uses the PI system to correct the duty cycle to reach the target level. The factory PI system is reasonably good so just leave is standard for now. In factory form the throttle body is a fair way from the turbo and too far to use aggresssive proportional gains so just work on the basics to start with. With closed loop all you really need to do is zero out the torque 12, 23 and 34 shift underboost, raise the 'P1227 limit' a little, make the overboost for 'open loop DC error' more negative and raise the 'underboost for open loope dc error'. The latter two won't need much at low boost...say 0.5 adjustment. From here you can set the desired boost table which is in inches of mercury. The PCM will always try and target these values and will adjust the duty cycle to get there. Ignore the manifold charge temps (MCT i.e. y-axis) and set all verticle values to the same desired boost level. Now you have to dial in your wastegate duty cycle that will achieve your 'desired boost'. These are the values that the pcm will use to start controlling boost so it is important to get them right (again ignore MCT and all verticle values can be the same). You will need to datalog the pcm's adjusted 'wastegate duty cycle' value and compare it to your commanded duty cycle. Refine this so it's adding a small amount of dutycycle in low gears and removing a little duty cycle in high gears.
edit, where are u located
Last edited by IH8TOADS; 04-15-2010 at 02:26 AM. Reason: location qu
Thanks heaps thats a great starting point, I wasn't sure anyone would want the info on public forum & was expecting PM!
Now the other thing is it's a manual so gear changes not a problem!
& I am using 98 octane & now I can add a fair amount of timing in there, but as the tables are not as I know them for the L67 & LS1 style format(ie; just straight timing figures for map or GPC charge), how are the timing tables written to convert them to what I can adjust them too?
I added some details in my profile is that what you meant, I couldn't find your det's IH8TOADS, i'm guessing with the user somewhere up in QLD?
The surge that it was doing on decel & then on light low cruise seemed better with the half moded tune, but was still there it is a bit weird & guessing it must be a mechanical sort of issue as the tune was the same as I pulled out of a later xr6t manual & that wasn't doing it!
I was thinking i may be like a vacuum leaking causing bad map read figure, but all looks good & no changes in rpm when I sprayed around manifold & hoses!
Thanks Again Grant LS1
The decel sounds mechanical to me, esp if it's stock.
Be careful with spark on the fords. There is quite a long calculation to get the final spark output. What you put in is not what you get out....BUT it's easy to predict the outcome. I have all the spark tables copied into an excel spreadsheet and then I have calculations to predict a spark output for given conditions (load, rpm, air temp, coolant temp etc). It's time consuming to set-up but it's an effective way to determine what spark the engine will see. I have seen relatively stock XR6T's with 98ron ping on the stock timing map with more boost. At 4000rpm there is 6.5 degrees advance at 1.4 load in the boarderline knock table, however the engine can see over 10 degrees (depending on the knock sensor calibration). This is why the generic SCT tunes can ping as there's too much timing in the BKT. If you're adding boost my advice is too start with less timing than factory just to be safe and then add timing from there.
Some food for thought. A load of 1.2 corresponds to ~6psi (~XR6T factory boost), a load of 1.4 corresponds to ~9.5psi (~F6 factory boost) and a load of 1.6 corresponds to ~13psi. The top load point in an XR6T is 1.4 and the top load point in an F6 is 1.6. Take a look at a BA F6 boarderline knock table. Essentially the top load point on these cars has less spark to protect the engine in the event of an overboost.
Overboosts do happen and small amounts can be common when running more boost. For example high gears (5th & 6th gear in a manual) can lead to overboost in open loop control and you can get spikes coming on boost with closed loop control (in any gear).
Most tuners seem to run open loop boost control, however when street tuning its easy to dial in your boost in closed loop using the 'desired boost' table (its in inches of mercury and a rough duty cycle estimate and then log wastegate duty cycle, boost error, desired boost etc in a number of gears and then work out what dutycycle it likes for what rpm and the 'desired' boost level you have commanded. This gives good data on approximate wastegate duty cycle if you switch to open loop. The only thing to look out for is if you go straight open loop (i.e. you're only running off the duty cycle table) is that you may need to command a little less duty cycle at 2500rpm compared to what the pcm calculates in closed loop.....which is normally 100%. Attached is an example of average 4th gear (M6) closed loop dutycycle logs for 16psi in my BA XR6T (has plenum, full exhaust, 12psi actuator etc).
I just tried comparing the xr6t borderline to the F6 & once I removed the extra load lines & the extra rpm increments the F6's have it look's like they have added timing to it, or atleast the BF F6 factory tune that was posted up here?
Don't know If I did it right but here's a copy of the excel sheet I made!
looking at my moded tune with what you had mentioned I had already adjusted most of the things you had mentioned but I couldn't find the wastegate periods & fmem's?
Thanks heaps for all your help, is it a hobby or paying job?
Just a hobby so my advice isn't gospel, but should help I hope! On my phone atm so can't view the file. However the bf is a different ball game as the spark adder for afr has different values as well as the adder for afr when open loop. So the bkt's are not directly comparable. Bf Phoon has 6.25 whereas the ba has 0.5 min in the bkt iirc. PM your email.
Edit the modifier to bkt for cam angle is zero on the ba Phoon whereas there is values for the bf Phoon. Therefore it adds to the confusion when comparing ba and bf bkt.
I can see it has benefits, you can run more timing in power enrichment on tip in, and zero it when richer, although it is a trap thats all, I tune without it just like on Holdens.
Yeah most tuners zero the table out but like I said it's there for a reason. Ford engineers calibrated the Boarderline knock table for lambda 1 and this table does a correction based on fuelling as an engine is more spark tolerant at richer AFR's and vise versa.
Therefore the afr correction table makes zero correction at lambda 1 when steady cruising. At light load and low RPM the the correction table is normally removing timing and at high rpm high load it's adding timing.
So if you zero this table out and use the boarderline knock table as your base spark table will need to remove timing at low load and rpm otherwise you're faced with too much timing as the transition to WOT is slow and it will set the knock sensors off prematurely regardless of whether you have re-calibrated your knock sensor/s.
I can't see how it's a trap, you can see the table, you know the correction it will make and when so you just keep this in mind when calibrating the boarderline knock table!
I cant find this in the software for an F6?The wastegate boost FMEM (failure management effects mode) is set at a 50% reduction from factory so that needs to be set to zero reduction.
I'm only learning on the ford's too, but I Thing the FMEM is a reference to the SCT Software & FMEM I think it is the desired torque reduction should the engine think it’s over boosted, I'm not sure if HP tuner software has it, but there is a torque module switch which is a torque reduction via cylinder fuel cut, not sure if it's the same or not as I'm new to it, anyone's else's opinion would be great too!
Cheers Grant
^ what Grant said!
Don't worry about it, just kill the other known torque reductions in HPT :-)
Ok I have killed all torque reduction but it seems to be bringing up the engine light and in the DTC's it says
[ECM] P0701 - Transmission control system Range/Performance
[ECM] P1227 - Wastegate failed closed (over pres.)
