Greg Banish's new DVD

[ctd]

I almost ordered mine, I've no problem with the price. It just pissed me with $15.00 to ship ....... utter BS, then a $12.95 handling fee.

Pfadt racing just shipped a box of Sway Bar Heim joints that weighs pounds not ounces for $11.00. no handling!



I will get it over it in time, then maybe I will order it.

[07MontRedcp]

I almost ordered mine, I've no problem with the price. It just pissed me with $15.00 to ship ....... utter BS, then a $12.95 handling fee.

Pfadt racing just shipped a box of Sway Bar Heim joints that weighs pounds not ounces for $11.00. no handling!



I will get it over it in time, then maybe I will order it.

Huh? I just ordered for $12.95 handling and ground shipping was included.

BJK

[Pekka_Perkeles]

So did you like it?

I did.

While some of the info has been floating around here in this forum, it's nice to see a proof of what's valid. Also some other things I've always wondered were now explained.

If I'm not mistaken, there was a tiny chapter in the DVD that was duplicated. Or maybe it was just my software DVD that played some chapter twice. ;-)

[pontisteve]

I liked it. I wish there was even more info on it, but isn't that always the case. I think some things could have been explained in further detail, but I suspect that time constraints force Greg to get to the point some.

So here's my review. Lets see, it covered big cams (injector timing, dashpot), Drive by wire throttle bodies, scaling for injectors/airflow limitations, virtual VE, load calculations, and dyno safety & setup.

All of this stuff was important info, and most of it assumed you've already purchased the beginners DVD. So he skipped a few things over, like idle timing, and sort of assume you have a more advanced understanding of things.

I was bummed that it only used EFI Live to show off virtual VE tuning, probably because HPT doesn't have the ability to back calculate virtual VE tables yet. (Wake up HP, we need this!). There is some sort of freebie software floating around this forum that works with HPT to do this, but so far I've found that difficult to get working. That would have been a great addition to the video though, to see how to use that software. I suppose Greg feels limited to using software that is fully developed in his training video though. What wasn't shown was just how close you're supposed to try and get to actual VE. So this section leaves some to be desired, but it does introduce you to it.

The load calculation section was great info, and really cleared it up for me how the GM system works, as well as GMVE. Really liked that chapter. I wish GM calculated actual load for you, like Ford does, in % relative to cylinder size. The video shows you how to manually calculate that yourself, so you know what's really going on. This section rocked.

With DBW, I feel something was missing. One table showed how you take wide open throttle data and use it to populate a table. But it didn't show how to get WOT data if the safetys are fighting you. Im assuming you have to jack the whole table up temporarily, get the data, then correctly populate the table? That wasn't shown. Also not shown was any part throttle stuff, although it was briefly mentioned on older cars. How to populate those tables was less clear, although if you've done VE on a load bearing dyno before, you should be able to figure that out. It didn't really show any work to the other DBW tables, and I'm unclear if any further work was necessary. Overall, this section was very good.

Greg, you showed how to do the ETC area scalar stuff, which was cool. But you didn't show where you got the 6341/4778 numbers from. That left me scratching my head.

The scaling section was clear as a bell. It showed how and why. A+ here.

The big cam section introduced you to injector timing and dashpot. Much time was spent on EOIT, and that was good. The definition of "reference periods" was missing, but there is a really good thread here on HPT forum that explains it. Would have been neat to see several 10 degree increments of EOIT and dyno results to go with it. But I think it was quite adequate as is. Dashpot was too short, and didn't really clarify what exactly throttle cracker and follower are, and what the difference is. But it did introduce you to it. So this section was half great, half too short.

My overall analysis is that this video should be very helpful to people who have not been exposed to these topics before. It could have been more detailed, but then again it could have been a whole set of DVDs for my taste. It's expert level stuff, and definitely builds on the last DVD. If you have a more wild combo with cams, blowers, etc then you'll really benefit from this video. Same goes if you have drive-by-wire, GMVE, or virtual VE. Buy it. This level of education is not easy to come by!

Even if it leaves you with a few questions, at least you will now know what questions to ask! So is there a 3rd DVD coming, and what might it teach us?

[Pekka_Perkeles]

Greg, you showed how to do the ETC area scalar stuff, which was cool. But you didn't show where you got the 6341/4778 numbers from. That left me scratching my head.

I won't check that from the DVD now, but it's easy to guess. Those numbers are based on the physical surface area of the throttle body. 90 mm vs. 78 mm.

You can calculate the surface area with basic mathematics. Pi * square of radius (not sure if that's proper way to put it in english).

Anyway, in case of 90 mm throttle body, divide 90/2 = 45. Then 45*45 * 3.14 = 6358.

Same for 78 mm. 78/2 = 39. Then 39*39*3.14 = 4775.

And now I'll check it again from the DVD. :-)

[pontisteve]

I figured it was that, but every time I did the math, it just never came out right on. Besides, couldn't you just take 90/78 squared and save all that math?

[eficalibrator]

Thanks for the honest review, Steve. It's always good to get an unbiased 3rd party opinion. Let me address a few concerns specifically below.

I liked it. I wish there was even more info on it, but isn't that always the case. I think some things could have been explained in further detail, but I suspect that time constraints force Greg to get to the point some.

You nailed it here. I only have ~2hrs of video time at decent resolution to get as much in there as possible. Going longer requires low-res video that looks like crap, so we decided to try work with the space available. This disc runs just inside that 2hr window like the first one.

I also don't like repeating myself. The student can always rewind and re-watch if he didn't get it the first time. This is exactly why I have so many chapter breaks. If it's covered in Disc #1, don't expect a complete rehashing in Disc#2. I don't want anyone to feel like they paid another $250 for the same material, so I made as much of it new material as possible. You really do need to be familiar with Disc #1 before jumping into this material.

I was bummed that it only used EFI Live to show off virtual VE tuning, probably because HPT doesn't have the ability to back calculate virtual VE tables yet. (Wake up HP, we need this!). There is some sort of freebie software floating around this forum that works with HPT to do this, but so far I've found that difficult to get working. That would have been a great addition to the video though, to see how to use that software.

I actually contact the author of the BlueCat tool directly about using it in the commercial video. He never gave me a response, so I can't use it without license. Sorry, but I tried. I agree that it would be really convenient to have a regression tool native to the HPT software similar to other systems instead of requiring you to go to a Custom OS. The factory OS is already 3bar capable and high resolution.

With DBW, I feel something was missing. One table showed how you take wide open throttle data and use it to populate a table. But it didn't show how to get WOT data if the safetys are fighting you. Im assuming you have to jack the whole table up temporarily, get the data, then correctly populate the table? That wasn't shown.

Yes. I disable the ETC safety checks ONLY when I'm strapped to the dyno. This allows you to record actual g/s and g/cyl at both WOT and part throttle so that you can go back and properly populate the tables shown.

It didn't really show any work to the other DBW tables, and I'm unclear if any further work was necessary.

If you get these right along with the other fundamentals, you shouldn't have much (if anything) left to do to other tables. Just because there's a knob in front of you doesn't mean you need to turn it!

Greg, you showed how to do the ETC area scalar stuff, which was cool. But you didn't show where you got the 6341/4778 numbers from. That left me scratching my head.

As shown above, they came from rough calculations based on the area of a circle. A=Pi*(R^2) Ideally you would also account for the area lost due to the throttle shaft as well, but that's a small number. Either way gets you much closer than what has been suggested by others on the internet.

The scaling section was clear as a bell. It showed how and why. A+ here.

Thanks! This was a HUUUUGGGEEE part of what took so long to produce. I really wanted it to make sense and reinforce the underlying theory. I hoped that showing it step by step and with the split screens would clear up some of the confusion I've seen. Just remember what I said about hitting ALL of the tables with units of g, g/s, g/cyl, or torque!

Dashpot was too short, and didn't really clarify what exactly throttle cracker and follower are, and what the difference is. But it did introduce you to it. So this section was half great, half too short.

They're both doing essentially the same thing. They just have slightly different input axes. The final adjustment to these is up to the user since it really impacts the "feel" of the car. There is no magic single solution. You have to decide how much is either "enough" or "too much" for your own taste. Even at the OEM level, these get massaged into the 11th hour before production release as managers and executives change their minds about what the car should feel like.

Even if it leaves you with a few questions, at least you will now know what questions to ask! So is there a 3rd DVD coming, and what might it teach us?

If it leaves you asking more intelligent, detailed questions, the it's working! I don't see a 3rd GM DVD any time soon. I'm going to re-structure the live classes now that these DVDs are both out with the assumption that students have seen and understood both discs. This will make the classes more of a very specific Q&A and dyno workshop type of format. They may become 1-day workshops at a lower price too.

[Bill@HPTuners]

Greg I haven't seen the video but did you go over using the 2.5 bar custom operating system we offer for most E38 applications? While we haven't coded in a VVE system the custom operating system has worked very well for our customers and is one of the more highly requested features(just as much if not moreso than VVE).

[pontisteve]

Yep, everything you just said makes perfect sense. And most of it was what I figured. Any complaint I have could just be summed up in one sentence... "I wish there was more time for more detail".

Having taken your advanced Ford class, I can say that 2 days of it still isn't enough time, and it adds another issue as well, retention. Its tough to get bombarded with great info for 2 days, and not be able to retain all of it. One thing sweet about a DVD is the rewind button.

In an ideal situation, I'd like to see a 2 hr DVD that compartmentalizes tuning more. More specifics to tuning one thing, like throttle cracker and follower, or any other small section of tune. More DVDs, less price per DVD. Of course, maybe that business model doesn't work as well, I don't know. Or maybe making sections cheaper opens the door to more volume, who knows.

I think that when you put the car in a temporary mode for tuning, like disabling the checks or in your first video, forcing MAF only mode, you should make sure you mention that. In the first video, I noticed that you didn't really do anything to the truck before MAF tuning, but you "put it back" when you were done. I had to catch that, to know how to put it in MAF only mode. Its so easy to assume someone else knows a certain thing, that you can easily miss forgetting to tell them something thats easy for you. And its a whole other world to try and write, or make a video about a topic. Relaying known info is a hard thing to do. I wrote a few articles, and was surprised just how hard it was to nail that.

If it's covered in Disc #1, don't expect a complete rehashing in Disc#2. I don't want anyone to feel like they paid another $250 for the same material

Great point!

Yes. I disable the ETC safety checks ONLY when I'm strapped to the dyno. This allows you to record actual g/s and g/cyl at both WOT and part throttle so that you can go back and properly populate the tables shown.

I figured as much, but wish you would mention that. I saw the WOT table, but didn't see any part throttle table work. Im confused on this, because I thought that at WOT, the computer didn't do safety checks. Why safety check when the guy is asking for full power? And why not safety check when its a part throttle condition? Did I miss something here? Is the WOT safety table the basis for background calculations of part load?

As shown above, they came from rough calculations based on the area of a circle. A=Pi*(R^2) Ideally you would also account for the area lost due to the throttle shaft as well, but that's a small number. Either way gets you much closer than what has been suggested by others on the internet.

Ok, lets talk about this for a moment. How come your calculator seems to always come up slightly different than mine? Like E10 stoich. My math says 14.08, but you always come up with 14.2. Can you xplain that one to me? While we're on the subject, in video 1 I didn't come up with the same wideband formula numbers you did for your wideband. Was that an oops?

Just remember what I said about hitting ALL of the tables with units of g, g/s, g/cyl, or torque!

Torque??? You didn't mention torque! Even without scaling, torque is a confusing point to me anyhow. The PCM is always calculating it, fine. But what if we have a motor that is 30% stronger than stock? Forget DBW, just regular torque calcs. Is there anything that can screw us up about this? Assuming that torque management stuff has mostly been turned to the max already, I mean.

They're both doing essentially the same thing. They just have slightly different input axes. The final adjustment to these is up to the user since it really impacts the "feel" of the car. There is no magic single solution.

You've got a way with words. Looking again, I can see that one is more throttle based, the other more mph based. It's a complex interaction though, when you consider the two tables do a similar thing, and then there's the decays and delays for each. Tough to know exactly which table to modify, but I would imagine the airflow tables themselves would be a safe bet.

Overall though, let me point out that my review points out my personal wishes for more information, but should not be considered negative in any way. I recommend to everyone to buy these videos. They are targeted right at the most fundamental tuning issues that you have to get right. The other stuff is more like icing on the cake that I wish was thicker.

[pontisteve]

Greg I haven't seen the video but did you go over using the 2.5 bar custom operating system we offer for most E38 applications? While we haven't coded in a VVE system the custom operating system has worked very well for our customers and is one of the more highly requested features(just as much if not moreso than VVE).

Bill, is there some list of processors somewhere that spells out what's what? Not having tuned as many GMs, I always find myself a little lost when specific processors like E38 are mentioned. Would be nice if there was a list that described what a person should know about each.

I'm also clueless as to when a write entire is required, vs a write partial. Rumor is not the best guide.

[Bill@HPTuners]

Bill, is there some list of processors somewhere that spells out what's what? Not having tuned as many GMs, I always find myself a little lost when specific processors like E38 are mentioned. Would be nice if there was a list that described what a person should know about each.

I'm also clueless as to when a write entire is required, vs a write partial. Rumor is not the best guide.

There are alot of GM pcm's we support
P01-LS1 pcm, write entire is only required when changing operating systems
P59-LS1 pcm, write entire is only required when changing operating systems
P04-V6 pcm, write entire is only required when changing operating systems
P05-V6 pcm, write entire is only required when changing operating systems
97-98 LS1 pcm, write entire is only required when changing operating systems
97-98 V6 pcm, write entire is only required when changing operating systems
E37-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
E38-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
E40-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
E67-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
E69-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
E77-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
P10-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
P11-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
P12-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
DMX-write entire is only required when changing operating systems
E60
E35-won't do write entire
E35b-won't do write entire

Each likely had a separate set of engineers working on the calibrations so to an extent each would need its own guide of ins and outs, we try to fill in the blanks where we can but some stuff we don't even know the answer to.

[Bayer-Z28]

just ordered the DVD From summit.. ......... I'm shaking for some reason.. :lol: I downloaded the HPT Trial software and there's a lot more in there that just leaves me with more questions... I thought it would be a little easier, but holy crow.. The spark tables alone confuse me. I know there should be different advance levels for each MAP/RPM, but I'm not sure how to do it. I've been lurking on here for a year and thought I'd be pretty familiar with the nomenclature by now, but oooof..

:thumb: Can't wait to get the course DVD.

[pontisteve]

Sometimes you've just got to jump in. Watch Greg's 1st DVD, and read his first book Engine Management: Advanced Tuning. Buy the pro version of the HPT software, and a good wideband with analog output. Play with the software a little bit, read all the help files you can stand, and ask some questions. Make very small changes at first, and see what happens.

After you gain a little experience, read the book again. Its amazing how much info is in that book, and the more you know, the more new info you'll find in the book.

You probably don't need the 2nd DVD right away, until you've mastered the principles of the first DVD. Make sure any injector you buy is one of the Ford Racing ones on the data CD.

The spark tables can be a bit overwhelming at first, but you'll get it. Generally speaking, it all starts with the high octane table. If the knock sensors detect knock, the timing will start dropping from the high octane table towards the low octane table, depending on how much knock the PCM sees. There is a separate table for idle timing, and there are several adder tables that may adjust the timing from the base (high octane) table, depending on motor conditions. These are called adders. They add a positive or negative amount of timing if necessary.

With base timing tables, you'll find that as load goes up, timing goes down. At the same time, as RPM goes up, timing goes up. Taking a good look at stock timing tables can give you the overall feel for what a correct table should look like. you'll also find that there is a slight dip in the timing right around peak torque, because that's where load is the highest.

Welcome to the rabbit hole.

[Bayer-Z28]

^ The thing with me is that I need a SERIOUS fire light under my rear to get me to read something.. It was torture to me even through college. I'm a visual/audio learner. I'll prolly pick up his books as well, but I'm not guaranteeing anything. lol

[Bayer-Z28]

Just came in..


I really gotta finish up my OSHA training before I let this distract me.

[Jason McClure]

Just purchased Greg's book on Advanced Tuning and found it be very informative. Does the dvd go more in-depth?

[Pekka_Perkeles]

It's funny how one of the most important things when starting tuning is to know when something is "normal".

I mean, what is a normal MAP value (kPa) at idle?

Well, if you have a stock engine, it's simply what the Scanner shows.

But many of beginners do not start tuning until the engine has been mechanically changed to provide additional horsepower.

I understand that with built engine, idle MAP kPa may differ, but for beginners, a stock scans would be useful. I think some examples should be saved as "stickies" in this forum.

[Bayer-Z28]

^ Now, I'm only speaking for myself here, but I'm going to start on a bone-stock Colorado 2.8L 4 cyl pickup... Lol.. I'm not even going to THINK about touching anything on the car. That's beyond my scope of comprehension right now. I modded it and trusted others to tune it. But I AM tired of paying ~$750 for a darn tune every time I change the VE of the engine.

[pontisteve]

That is a good point about normal. I would suggest logging some bone stock engine like yours, and seeing how a normal engine looks. That can be very helpful. Just make sure your "normal" car is running perfectly, and has zero mods.

Another helpful thing when learning is to have a program that you can download for free on the internet, called convert.exe. I use this program constantly! It can convert just about any measurement into another one. For example, you can convert MAP into InHg (Inches of Mercury... otherwise known as vacuum on a vacuum gauge). Only thing to remember there is that MAP is absolute pressure, so it includes the 14.5 psi of atmospheric pressure in addition to any additional pressure on the boost side. Play with it some and you'll see.

One nice way to think about using convert is to punch in the value 1 in one end of the equation. For example, 1 psi = about 2.03" of vacuum. So you can figure that if you have an engine that makes 12" of vacuum at idle, that's about -6 psi. If you have a car that has a fuel pressure regulator that is vacuum referenced (like Fords), you can see that at idle your fuel pressure drops from 39 to say 33. That's because the engine makes 12" of vacuum, or -6 psi, so the pressure drops 6 psi from the preset 39, giving you 33. Things like this are very helpful in understanding the big picture.

If you hook up a vacuum gauge to your motor, and watch it while watching your scanner, and use the convert program to convert InHg (inches of vacuum) to KPA, you'll quickly see the relevance of MAP. It's just that MAP includes the additional 14.5 psi (29" of vacuum) of atmospheric pressure.

1 atmosphere = 101.325 KPA = 1.01325 BAR = 29.92 Inches of Mercury = 14.69595 PSI = 1013.25 Millibar.

Converting can be the key to understanding, until you get used to working with the various measurements.

[Bayer-Z28]

Wow!!! I am soo frickin hooked!! I'm gonna end up with Greg's entire library!!

I just finished watching the DVD and I'm gonna go back through and watch it again just to pick up the stuff I know I missed. I still soak this stuff up like a sponge tho.

I want the second DVD and I'm getting a hankering for the real data-log now! I can't wait to gather some data from my truck, go rent the local dyno and make a couple changes!

I'm hooked! Anyone on the fence about this DVD; Get off the fence and just get it! Amazing all the info he crams into there! There's no easing into it either.. He just jumps in head first!

Awesome awesome awesome!!! That was JUST what I needed!!

*proceeds to buy the books*