It is Speed density time! :)

[Missing2]

Seriosuly considering it after assisting (yeah, he wanted to use the scanner) a friend with his ls1 camaro last night..

first.. let me make sure i have this all strait..
Sensors used:
-Map
-Ait
-O2's
-Knock Sensor

Ok time for the questions
1) map sensor
- I would want to run a 2 or 3 bar.. with a SD setup all i would need to change is the MAP frequency.. but from what i can tell there isent one for the v6's ???

- or is it all done via the VE table??

- I want to ditch the fmu i am using so SD + bigger injectors shuld take care of that

- how does spark operate? provided that you are no longer calulating air mass the way you used to, and as the histogram scanner showed last night it stays up in that top row?? kinda confused about that..

2) drivability..
again.. I am assuming this is all VE.. Anyone have pointer on how to edit that.. i am sure the wideband setups will help me alot with that..

3) WOT
PE table still?
if my asumptions are correct it shuld make tuning alot simpler..

any insight/advice would be great..

4) idle..
is there anything funny to expect from the retarted electronic throttle body?


5) codes to dissable? (acctualy i think i saw them in another thread..)

i think thats it for now..

thanks in advance
-Bill

[arthansen]

All good questions. I will also be going SD soon. I need to get the new Cam installed and working (don't want to change two things at once) before I make the jump.

Soon will come the Supercharger and then I will need other info. For starters, I need some clarification. In previous threads about the MAP sensor, the 3 bar issue seems to take over. Here is a very simple question.

Will the 2 bar sensor used in the GTP work on the F-bodies? If so, which table needs to be scaled?

If the 2 bar works, that will be good to 15 psi of boost. That should be enough for starters.

Next, what table do you modify for bigger injectors?

Now for Missing2's questions.

1. Obviously, I don't know (maybe some of the needed tables will be in 1.5).

2. Unplug your MAF (actually remove the whole assembally if yours is like the 2001 and replace with a piece of flat plastic). The trim reset will not work on the V6 (hopefully 1.5 will fix this) so you will have to reset the PCM ( I forget how but do a search). Disable PE mode by raising the PE enable temp to 250*. Then log some runs. Use the LTFT Histogram and where it is positive, add that amount to the VE table, where negitive, take it away. Do this a few times and the VE table should be wired in. When done, return PE enable to normal temp.

3. Tune PE using wide band O2. Logging makes this very easy. Wait for 1.5 or do what I did and feed the 0-1 Volt output to your rear O2 sensor.

4. The idle should be fine once you get the VE table set.

5. Search for the Codes.

Hope that helps and if I said anything wrong, someone pipe in.

[Missing2]

Thats for the help!!

: <-- to everyone except art


I really need one of the HPT guys to chime in here because they are pretty much the only ones that can make this happen.. I deinatly will need to edit whatever the MAP lookup table is at a minum before I can even attept this.. and well

that dosent even seem like an option yet..


sooo.. any day now..

[Chris@HPTuners]

Hi Bill,

Haven't had time to look at this, but should be ok in the next few weeks.

Contact me via email with:
- your bin
- is this a s/c app? If not then why 2bar?
- anything else you can think of

Assuming you are sticking with your current MAP sensor, the VE table should be all you need modify. When i get your bin i will take a closer look.

Chris...

[Missing2]

Hi Bill,

Haven't had time to look at this, but should be ok in the next few weeks.

Contact me via email with:
- your bin
- is this a s/c app? If not then why 2bar?
- anything else you can think of

Assuming you are sticking with your current MAP sensor, the VE table should be all you need modify. When i get your bin i will take a closer look.

Chris...

you post.. billy need attention.. you make billy happy..

yes, in order for me to run SD I will need to upgrade the map sensor..

the car has a supercharger on it, it is otherwise "NA" tune wise.. besides the minor WOT tweeks I made to the spark maps and a few little things. becase i run an FMU that pretty much takes care of my fuel for "now"

2 bar will probably be fine.. but i figured if i am doing it i might as well go with a 3.. however i am rethinking that because of the finite amount of cells we have in the VE table it would probably be benificial to have the lower scaling by the map sensor..

So, what now? I guess for now my primary concern is beaing able to run a larger map sensor (primary issue), scaling in larger injectors (not really an issue, gota edit flow rates), and getting rid of the FMU (not really an issue, edit VE and PE)..

let me know whats up and when I will have the ability to run the larger map.. I still think that I will wait atleast a month or two to acctualy make all the changes and then tune. I want to get comfertable editing VE via wideband first. THe only reason i am making this request now is so when i get there, I will have the option..

thanks in advance and let me know if you still want my bin??

[Chris@HPTuners]

ok i see.

This falls under some future functionality we are working on.

You can do 2bar in your current code with calibration changes only, but VE only runs to 140 kPa after which you are basically winging it on the fuel side which is not what you want. Effectively you would be turning you current cal into a s/c cal aka a GTP or Bonne.

To extend the VE requires a few OS mods.

I definitely want to get this up and running, remind me again in a month or so and we'll move forward. There are a few others who want to get into 2/3 bar SD s/c setups. The v6 code poses a few extra challenges compared to the V8 but i'm sure we can work around them.

Chris...

[arthansen]

Count me in on this. I will probably go the 42# injectors and 2 bar MAP with SD tuning. However, a lot will depend on how much more control you give us in Version 1.5.

[Missing2]

ok, well I can live with 2 bar for sure I dont think my car will ever see more then 10-15lbs of boost.. but you never know.. so 3 bar is something I may be looking for in a year or so..

what do we need to do to get the 2 bar option up and running?

thanks for the info chris

[rattle]

all map sensors from gm work on 0 to 5 volt range
your stock one bar 0V=vacumm 5V=atomosphere (100KPA give or take)

2 bar 0V still is vacumm, but the 100KPa is now at 2.5V
the top half of the two bar is now for boost. This means wide open throttle non boost would read approx 55kpa and 14 pounds of boost will read as 100kpa.

3 bar, well you guessed it, table just gets split into 3 so to speak.

Dont use the 3 bar just cause you want to, the loss of sensor resolution will result in unfavorable street manners unless your ve table is veerrry smoooth. 2 bar sensor is quite nice, you may notice some fish bite feel which means you need more refinement in your table.

Dont forget to adjust the open loop afr VS temp table as well.

[Missing2]

all map sensors from gm work on 0 to 5 volt range
your stock one bar 0V=vacumm 5V=atomosphere (100KPA give or take)

2 bar 0V still is vacumm, but the 100KPa is now at 2.5V
the top half of the two bar is now for boost. This means wide open throttle non boost would read approx 55kpa and 14 pounds of boost will read as 100kpa.

3 bar, well you guessed it, table just gets split into 3 so to speak.

Dont use the 3 bar just cause you want to, the loss of sensor resolution will result in unfavorable street manners unless your ve table is veerrry smoooth. 2 bar sensor is quite nice, you may notice some fish bite feel which means you need more refinement in your table.

Dont forget to adjust the open loop afr VS temp table as well.

I was thinking along those lines.. I allready read up on map sensors the differences are simply the slope, if you were to graph the pressure and voltage

thanks for the other pointers though..

[arthansen]

However, our PCM tables only go to 140 kpa or about 6 psi of boost. This is where the problem lies.

[rattle]

doesnt matter that table only goes to 140

stock one bar 140 is near 5 volts sensor output

with two bar 140 is near 2.5 volts, will show in table as 60 kpa.

so you can use the current table without problem, its just confusing at first. but once you hook up a two bar sensor and log it you will see what i mean.
For instance, if you have a non boosted engine AND you installed a two bar sensor you would never read higher than about 60KPA, so now all your tuning for non boosted will be done in bottom 1/2 of VE table, Once you install your boost device you will now be able to tune up to 14 pounds of boost (portion of table from 60 up to 140 kpa)

You dont even have to do any math, your logged data still shows which cell needs adjusting. Only problem is you loose resolution (less cells to adjust for a given range). Then only other option is to edit the operating system and double the size of the lookup table.

[Missing2]

doesnt matter that table only goes to 140

stock one bar 140 is near 5 volts sensor output

with two bar 140 is near 2.5 volts, will show in table as 60 kpa.

so you can use the current table without problem, its just confusing at first. but once you hook up a two bar sensor and log it you will see what i mean.
For instance, if you have a non boosted engine AND you installed a two bar sensor you would never read higher than about 60KPA, so now all your tuning for non boosted will be done in bottom 1/2 of VE table, Once you install your boost device you will now be able to tune up to 14 pounds of boost (portion of table from 60 up to 140 kpa)

You dont even have to do any math, your logged data still shows which cell needs adjusting. Only problem is you loose resolution (less cells to adjust for a given range). Then only other option is to edit the operating system and double the size of the lookup table.

Thanks again for posting man, you are helping me confirm alot of the little things i was "thinking" but not 100% sure of..

yah dig it art??

hrm..
looks like i need to get my hands on a 2 bar map sensor..

[Chris@HPTuners]

just remember there are a whole bunch of other MAP referenced paramters in the PCM that will now require halving, this is why i favor the alternate method of actually keeping the resolution and make the tables bigger. You don't have to touch the other stuff.

[Missing2]

just remember there are a whole bunch of other MAP referenced paramters in the PCM that will now require halving, this is why i favor the alternate method of actually keeping the resolution and make the tables bigger. You don't have to touch the other stuff.

i agree more cells is better.. get to work..

So I guess i shuld hold off on this for a while..

1.6 release perhaps??

[Chris@HPTuners]

this kind of "stuff" is currently earmarked beginning with 1.6.

[Missing2]

this kind of "stuff" is currently earmarked beginning with 1.6.

awsome

[WCP]

so whats the best way to handle the fueling whne you go past the VE table?? I know making it bigger would be the best thing, but what about now??

[viper04af]

so....

IM going to need a 3 bar MAP. i plan on ~20 psi danm i wish i had my car here so i could ticker wit hit

Kieth
If i buy the stuff, can i down load it and maybe have one of these guys send my there file so i can mess with it some, with out haveing my car here?

[arthansen]

Once the new interface gets here, I am going SD. I am setting up the tune and have a couple questions (my comments are in green).


WS6snake-eater came up with this: [glow=red,2,300](for V8s)[/glow]Step by Step for sd tuning:

1: Unplug and replace MAF with a strait bellows (less airflow dispruption creates a better VE)
[glow=red,2,300]No problem, I will just remove the MAF and cover hole with a piece of alluminum.[/glow]

2: Disable MAF codes (No check engine light) EDIT:Skip this step, see post by WS6snakereater elsewhere in this thread
[glow=red,2,300]Done, I just set the codes to 2, No Mil Light.[/glow]

3: Change all points from 122* and greater to 1.13 in the Open Loop F/A vs ECT vs MAP table (commands AFR of 13.0)
[glow=red,2,300]We do not have this table, I have no clue what to do here except maybe change the Stoich AFR to 13.0 or use the new VCM Controls to command 13.0??[/glow]

4: Change all points in the Closed Loop Enable Coolant Temp vs IAT table to 250* (Disables closed loop)
[glow=red,2,300]I just changed the Closed Loop Enable to 250*[/glow]

5: Copy High Octane table to the Low Octane Table (computer reverts to low octane table when MAF is unplugged, this assure optimal timing)
[glow=red,2,300]Done[/glow]

6: Change all points in the Power Enrich Fuel Multiplier vs RPM table to 1.0 (disables PE mode)
[glow=red,2,300]Again, we do not have, how do I disable PE or should I just change all values in the PE Fuel Adder vs RPM vs Time to Zero (0) so it always calls for 13.0? Or does the VCM control (if I use it) force the AFR so PE will not matter??[/glow]

7: Use wideband to verify AFR of 13.0
8: Make adjustments to the VE table accordingly to dial in a 13.0 AFR (a lot of driving or dyno time)
9: Hand smooth VE as described by Magnus (a smooth VE results in crisper throttle response)
[glow=red,2,300]This is the tuning part, NP.[/glow]

10: Change all points in Open Loop F/A vs ECT vs MAP table back to stock (re-enable stoich commanded AFR)
11: Change all points in the Closed Loop Enable Coolant Temp vs IAT table back to stock (re-enables closed loop operation and fuel trim leaning)
12: Change all points in the Power Enrich Fuel Mulitiplier vs RPM table back to stock (re-enables PE mode)
[glow=red,2,300]These are no problem, just return what I changed to stock.[/glow]

13: Use wideband and PE table to dial in desired WOT AFR. (optimum HP at WOT)

[glow=red,2,300]This is standard PE adjustments, NP.[/glow]

[glow=red,2,300]I think that will do. Any help would be appreciated.[/glow]