E85 Performance?

[markislive]

Anyone out there running a performance tune for E85? If so what kind of Hp/Tq gains gains compared to 93 oct?

[BBA]

No but...less unless supercharged.

It takes about 1/3 more fuel to make the most power and the specific power is less than gas. Works good for superchargers though, you can have more boost with a high compression ratio. I guess driving a top fuel alky motor on the street would be kind of cool.

[murphinator]

been doing my research on e85 ( I'm supercharged , not intercooled, spraying) and plan to start blending e85 with the e10 in my local "gas" pumps

if you are high compression , forced induction , or spraying you can expect to make similar power to pretty high octane race fuels like c16 running e85 at 100% provided its actual e85 and not the e70 that gets sold seasonally in pumps marked and marketed as "e85".

oversimplifying here but e85 is comparable to 112 octane or higher while e70 is comparable to 105 octane hence the 105 rating on the pumps.

my concern for those that dont know which fuel they are getting is if you tune on e70 then you get some e85 it will run leaner.

there are cheap ethanol content test kits as well as more expensive ethanol content sensors.

above ^ is based on internet research not practical use so if I am mistaken on anything please correct me guys

[E85 LSX]

I'm running E85 in my ls3 Camaro. I can't tell you what kind of gains I was able to achieve when I made the switch because I only dynoed the car with E85 not 93.

You will gain approx. 5% more power compared to 93 octane fuel in a NA motor making no other changes (due to the energy content of the fuel and the stoich value). Superchared is another story because of the high octane and also the cooling effect of the fuel. I will be supercharged soon and let you know how it goes.

My car did dyno around 5% higher than others with the same mods, confirming the math.

You will also see quicker response and your engine will never knock! You will also be helping the environment so I say you do it!

[markislive]

How would you optimize E85 timing tables if KR does not show up in the histogram?

[tommytuner]

E85LSX is exactly right, we've done quite a few cars, both n/a and boosted. most recently a 2000 camaro, 11.5:1 compression, huge cam with ITB's, and the throttle response was freakin' amaaazing!! we had previously tuned on 91, but the ethanol tune picked up just under 30 rwhp. before that, an '07 vette with long tubes and a magnuson. that car picked up more than 60rwhp over gas, response was equally as wicked too. best part of the maggie car tho-intake air temps dropped over 40 degrees, even tho the IAT is located several inches upstream of the injectors!! we will be tuning a twin-turbo G8 soon, made 550 on gas with tons of kr-even with methanol, anxious to see that one done. i have a looong list of similar comparisons, feel free to ask......

you do hafta be careful with timing tho, i've NEVER seen knock with it. it would be pretty easy to run too much and not kno it. i use a mustang md1750 dyno and tune using live torque, with RTT or bidirectional controls to get in the ballpark. most cases n/a it will want only like a few degrees more, but in boost situations it can sometimes tolerate much more.....

[E85 LSX]

How would you optimize E85 timing tables if KR does not show up in the histogram?

Tuning the timing tables using the knock sensors is incorrect no matter what fuel you use, but like tommytuner said it is even more dangerous when running ethanol. Due to its knock resistance you can advance timing to where you will loose torque (and hurt the engine) without ever knocking. Use a dyno to find out how much timing the engine needs on ethanol.

[BBA]

oversimplifying here but e85 is comparable to 112 octane or higher while e70 is comparable to 105 octane hence the 105 rating on the pumps.

WAAAAYYY OVER SIMPLIFYING IT there.

E85 is mostly alcohol. It has a high octane but lower power potential than the equiv octane gasoline. The only power gains that can be made is for high compression and/or forced induction, where you can run higher cylinder pressure than with gas. The down side is to bridge that power gap you will have to make sure enough work is done to prevent head gasket blowing under so much pressure, such as o-ring the block, which is costly in itself.

Basically, it's almost alcohol designed to satisfy evironmentalist whackos, not good for anything else IMO.

[LSX378]

WAAAAYYY OVER SIMPLIFYING IT there.

E85 is mostly alcohol. It has a high octane but lower power potential than the equiv octane gasoline. The only power gains that can be made is for high compression and/or forced induction, where you can run higher cylinder pressure than with gas. The down side is to bridge that power gap you will have to make sure enough work is done to prevent head gasket blowing under so much pressure, such as o-ring the block, which is costly in itself.

Basically, it's almost alcohol designed to satisfy evironmentalist whackos, not good for anything else IMO.

Duh? Lower power potential? Having run E85 in an LS7 for well over a year the only downside is the 50% extra fuel flow required. It runs cleaner, smoother, and as tommytuner pointed out > pretty well knock free.

[BBA]

Yeah, but you spend more for fuel to drive the same distance and you produce lower power than you could if you had run straight gas.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/altern...3/article.html

Like it or not, E85 is designed to be a gas dilution fuel, diluting gas with alcohol to reduce emmissions. It requires more fuel for the same power. As for the actual octane rating, not the concentration/volume formula, but in actual real world octane R+M/2 test (mechanical testing) E85 has a real octane rating between 94 and 96 octane. All that 102 octane rating is bull that can not be substantiated.

So, you dilute gas, you get diluted performance and mileage, that's why you also get diluted emmissions. Plain and simple, it's thermodynamic thing.

[LSX378]

Actually spend about the same, have no knock, and more power.

So you are saying that the iso-octane referenced knock rating of pure ethanol at around 116 is not true?

[BBA]

Actually spend about the same, have no knock, and more power.

So you are saying that the iso-octane referenced knock rating of pure ethanol at around 116 is not true?

No, I am saying the octane rating of E85 is 94 to 96 when rated the same way gasoline is rated in the united states (R+M/2)

If you want to go to international standards, a common trick for environmental whacko's, you get different numbers: In specific our 93 octane gasoline is rated 100 octane in Europe.

[BBA]

BTW: Here is the energy difference on scales of both per volume and per mass of fuels:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...gy_Density.PNG

[E85 LSX]

No, I am saying the octane rating of E85 is 94 to 96 when rated the same way gasoline is rated in the united states (R+M/2)

If you want to go to international standards, a common trick for environmental whacko's, you get different numbers: In specific our 93 octane gasoline is rated 100 octane in Europe.

I respectfully disagree with most of your opinions reguarding E85. You say it has a "lower power potential" if you are refering to its energy value by mass you are correct, it is lower, But the stoich value is also much different than gas.

Even though it has less energy by mass to offer than gas it requires much less air to burn and therefore you burn more of it in the cylinder and release more energy than is possibly with gas when dealing with the same airmass.

Also I've read that the octane of E85 using the (R+M)/2 method is 101.6 (Greg Banish, Advanced Tunning) not from wikedpedia lol

And In a boosted engine the power gains do not come from the higher octane alone but also the tremendous cooling capacity as it evaporates.

Basically E85 will make more power in a NA or boosted engine. . . its not just for "envirormentalist wackos"

[murphinator]

BBA humor me and go plug e85 in you tube or street fire and watch some vids for an hour or 2

you will get a few vids of the environmentalist wacko types - I somewhat agree the reason for e 85's existence is a political feel good thing at least until they can make it in a cost effective manner from lots of different things besides corn

but us performance enthusiast can take advantage in the meantime and make power with the stuff !

I have seen some vids out there where people running fuels like c16 went to e85 to make more power , yes the quantity has to increase because stoich is lower but the octane & charge cooling effect is fabulous for people running boost ,compression , or spray for around $2.50 a gallon

[LSX378]

.....and.....considering when 50% more is burned at stoich compared to normal gas, it still has considerably lower emissions pretty well across the board for both tail pipe and HC evap emissions.....apart from a tad too much formaldehyde..... .

And you dont need to be an environmental whacko to see and appreciate the positive effect emissions regs have had on the air in LA since the 70's.

Cooling effect sees intake valves (etc) running around 50-60 degrees cooler .

[BBA]

I have not and am not saying you can't take advantage of it for supercharged applications. The same reason alky dragsters make so much power, simply due to octane differences. You still burn more fuel, the difference is alcohol motors will burn your eyes with the exhaust, the gas motors just smell like gas burning.

There have been university studies that disprove E85 as an environmentally good fuel, due to the pollutants it produces which are not listed in the EPA's give a darn ratings. The problem is real world vs politics: It's not politically correct to say E85 is a bad thing.

[E85 LSX]

I have not and am not saying you can't take advantage of it for supercharged applications. The same reason alky dragsters make so much power, simply due to octane differences. You still burn more fuel, the difference is alcohol motors will burn your eyes with the exhaust, the gas motors just smell like gas burning.

There have been university studies that disprove E85 as an environmentally good fuel, due to the pollutants it produces which are not listed in the EPA's give a darn ratings. The problem is real world vs politics: It's not politically correct to say E85 is a bad thing.

So E85 is not envirormentally friendly. . . unlike gasoline

Current methods of producing E85 may not be the most effiecient but as technology advances and we shart producing cellulistic ehtanol from switch grass and stuff it will be much more envirormentally friendly than gas.

Untill then lets just enjoy this very cheap race gas

[LSX378]

Emissions wise its really a matter of trading off the benzene etc in gas against the formaldehyde and acetyldehyde from ethanol fuels. We dont here much about either.......yet.

[tommytuner]

i won't quote any scientific data to back up my opinion, and i will qualify my standpoint by saying E85 is not for everyone. but my dyno does not lie. there are most definitely situations where, imho-E85 absolootly rocks.

i'm very careful in qualifying (and educating) my customers before we make a switch, and have to this date not yet had anyone unsatisfied. in EVERY case, performance gains have been significant, and we've seen a typical loss of 1-3 mpg during "normal" driving. WOT in most cases, you can almost see the gas gauge drop, so again, it's not for everyone. i would prolly not recommend it to someone running a stock engine with bolt-ons....

i also must say, i was a huge corn-gas skeptic until my first experience. but the stuff works. and it smells good. tuning E85 cars-makes me huuuuungry for fried foods!!