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Thread: VE tuning questions/problems

  1. #1

    VE tuning questions/problems

    So I have my Ve tune working pretty well...It commands exactly what I want it to command at any given point in time...but I am having trouble calibrating it at WOT.

    I have been using the Ve table in hp tuners to find the error % and paste that into the VE table...my part throttle is looking pretty decent, but WOT is maxed out.

    and by that I mean, I am at 200% on my ve table, and I can't bring that number any higher, and the car is running leaner at WOT...Ive managed to get it into the mid 13's at WOT, but I am commanding 12.5, and I cannot correct my ve table any further in those cells because I am already at 200...what can I do about this?
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Down View Post
    you sould be tuning ve to stoich not the desired pe value.

    after you get 14.XX ve in steady state with the pe table set to the correct value to what your goal is 12.8 or 11.8 then when you enter pe you will be at your goal if ve is tuned to 14.XX. do you have pe disabled?
    no, I am actually running PE from 25% throttle onwards.

    The way I have it set up is my stoich is 14.4...so when under 25% throttle the car tries to achieve 14.4...then at 25% throttle and 3200 rpm I have it set to go to 13.8 via PE, then 13.6 at 3600, then 13.2 at 4000, and finally 12.5 above that.

    It commands perfectly, and has stayed very close to 14.4 during cruising...it only is off during WOT runs, and I cannot put anymore then 200 in the WOT categories....
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Down View Post
    fuel pressure ok? might need bigger injs
    looks ok on the gauge...high 50's IRRC...I have 36# injectors and only the cam in my sig...fueling is fine when I tune with the MAF, only reason I am doing the VE is because I will be running more then 1 throttle body in the next few months, and I will no longer be able to run a MAF...
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  4. #4
    This is just before I changed the WOT categories to 200%...

    The tune should be the one that was written either just before the scan I provided, or the one that was after...i an't 100% remember...

    Attachment 22252

    Attachment 22253

    Attachment 22254
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  5. #5
    well I have the injector tuning a little off, they are actually more of a 33lb injector then a 36lb...but the tuning was fine with the maf that I had before?
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  6. #6
    Ok, I never really understood trims, so how do I not use these?

    I was just using table 7 I made on my histograms and pasting error % in my ve table...I used my PE and stoich numbers to control my desired AFR, and my command AFR is right where I want it... just its not calibrated at the moment, and you believe it is because of the trims? So how can I not use these?
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  7. #7
    would a 2bar Map sensor make any difference? do we have the compatibility to run them?
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner angrygoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Down View Post
    Found your problem. your using trims and the pcm is pulling the fuel your adding. stop using trims.

    That will do it. You need to disable you trims and work in a proper OL and utilize the WB you have to dial it all in. Thats why you are right on your AFR cruising, because the computer is making the fuel corrections for you. You need to set your CL and LTFT enable temps to max. There are some other tables as well but I cant look at the tune and I'm not familiar with your platform
    Joe
    2006 M6 GTO
    APS TT
    10.76@131

    "The goal of tuning is for the tune to run well enough you dont need any corrective mechanisms"

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by angrygoat View Post
    That will do it. You need to disable you trims and work in a proper OL and utilize the WB you have to dial it all in. Thats why you are right on your AFR cruising, because the computer is making the fuel corrections for you.
    Ok, how do you do this though?

    I am running in OL if you look at the tune, I have forgotten to hit "reset fuel trims" a couple of times while tuning...but in the end, in my VE table in the WOT cells under 100KPA I have it at 200% and I cannot go any higher then this. It seems that everytime I raise that number, the fueling got a little closer?

    So how can I go about disabiling these trims? and we DO NOT have LTFT enable table/option
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Down View Post
    you need to ask support really nice and see if they will find/add the tables for trim disable, 02 control tables and injector tables for you. they might be in the beta all ready. you can not tune your ride with what you have right now.
    shiat. Does it make any difference that the LTFT may only of been on there because I forgot to hit "reset fuel trims"? in the scan before this one, I lock in on 0 as soon as I hit WOT?
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  11. #11
    so how do you change what the O2s are seeing so that they match the wideband or trims in CL? is that not the AFR error %?

    I thought there really is only 1 injector table for the PCM to run off of? it just tells the pcm the injector sizing under each pressure?

    I don't 100% follow what you are saying, I'm not the brightest person when it comes to this stuff, so you kinda gotta dumb it down lol.

    unfortunatly there isn't much reading regarding VE tuning on a v6 either, so my resources are limited in what I am reading and trying to comprehend on here and other sites...
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  12. #12
    Advanced Tuner
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    3800's dont get all the control other platforms get , I think the workaround for wot tuning without trims (open loop) may be unplugging the 02 sensor so it cant get any data from the 02's , no 02 data no trims to try to correct for data ???

    kinda like maf tuning where there is no place to disable the maf in the tune you just have to physically unplug it

    still studying myself to get a handle on it before proceeding but I know I have seen reference to doing it this way somewhere -take it with a grain of salt till a guru can chime in
    PB's 1/4 mi 12.21 117.75 trap ,1/8 mi. 7.779 93.99trap , 1.949 short time (FWD W body)

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Down View Post
    If you unplug the 02's the pcm will see 0 volts and the trims will go + max value trying to correct the fueling error.
    thank you for correcting me ,gotta be a workaround though...
    PB's 1/4 mi 12.21 117.75 trap ,1/8 mi. 7.779 93.99trap , 1.949 short time (FWD W body)

  14. #14
    for VE tuning on our camaros the only way to turn off trims is using the scanner. not that it makes any sense but it must have something to do with the maf being disabled. because when i tune maf, there are no trims just by disabling closed loop by setting it to 284*
    ihaven't gotten a chance to look at the tunes cuz i dont have my laptop at work, but im curious to see them... i dont understand for the life of me, why my commanded afr is all over the place in open loop...
    2001 3.8 v6 camaro, T5, ford 42lb green top injectors, grand national .63 a/r turbo. 8psi. stock motor, ngk tr6 plugs (one step colder) 91 octane.

    2001 4.3 zr2 s10. daily driver, 31" tires, 4x4, cat! and exhaust. looking for mpg.

  15. #15
    I shut down the fuel trims with the scanner, and I am still maxing the MAP under the 100kpa section. 200 is the max number and I can't go above that any, and the pcm still shows it needs to add fuel.

    Now, as suggested by someone I played with the PE table a bit...I asked the car to command 12.0 instead of 12.5...and I seem to be hovering around 12.6 actual afr at the moment in WOT.

    I dont like tuning like this though, becuase I feel that the car will try to bring the afr down to what commanded is asking through learning...

    I will probably leave the car in openloop all the time since I dont want the car correcting and using the O2 sensors, I want the car to take what is off the tables and use that only.

    I dunno...why are my numbers even as high as 200% in the Ve table anyways?? everyone else/stock shows like below 100%...I know I am not stock, and I dont fully even understand what that number represents in the VE table (Im guessing its 200% more air then what was calibrated through factory?) the other thing I dont like is I am at 200% and this is on the single factory throttle body...wtf is going to happen when I add SIX throttle bodies?!??! feels like I am going to have to command PE to 1:1 just so that it will give me something in the 12's like I want...
    Last edited by LETZRIDE; 02-22-2010 at 02:46 PM.
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  16. #16
    Here is the new tune, the last log that I collected data with to make changes to this tune.

    Again I forgot to shut the fuel learning off with the scanner on this scan like an idiot (was a quick scan I did) but non the less I can see visually that the fueling is off.

    Im not logging fuel pressure (I dont have a hook up for it for hp tuners, and I have to figure out if I can take the signal from my gauge and hook it into the EIO port)

    BUT, from watching the gauge it really doesnt move when driving, it stays up at 55-58 psi I think it is?

    I also changed the injectors to scale...should be very close to what they should be 33 scaled to 34 lbs

    Fueling should not be an issue with the cam I have, and 36# injectors...these injectors were bought because they give me room to add more mods without having to worry about fuel itself...unless there is a fuel pump issue, but I would think that the gauge would fluctuate?
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by thebeewantsboost View Post
    having fuel trims means you are either in closed loop or are in open loop and are not resetting your fuel trims. which is it?? cuz i know in our cars open loop is all over the place sense there aren't any open loop tables.
    My open loop isnt all over the place...look at the tune/scans I sent you lol...atleast the commanded isnt all over the place, this calibrating issue is a work in progress which I am slowly starting to get.

    If you turn the "learn fuel trims off" tab off then you dont have LTFTs, but I am not 100% sure what this has to do with the tune, since the scanner will not be hooked up 24/7 and therefore the LTFTs will be collecting data anytime the scanner is not present.

    So Ive kind of just let that be for the moment, and see if I can tune around it...
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Down View Post
    problem with using the scanner to turn off trims is when you turn them back on and switch to closed loop your trims will no add or subtract fuel based on what the 02's are reporting. now if you have a wide band that has a programmable serial out like the innovative ones then you can adjust the 02 signal to make the trims be correct in relationship to the wide band afr and not have to turn off the trims.
    well first off, the hp tuner platform for our cars suck. the only way u can turn off ltfts (for VE) is by using the scanner.

    why is it that when putting it back in closed loop the fuel trims won't add or pull fuel based on what the 02' are reporting?

    i have an aem wideband. no "programmable" out. i don't really get what u were saying in the last sentence.
    Last edited by thebeewantsboost; 02-22-2010 at 07:19 PM.
    2001 3.8 v6 camaro, T5, ford 42lb green top injectors, grand national .63 a/r turbo. 8psi. stock motor, ngk tr6 plugs (one step colder) 91 octane.

    2001 4.3 zr2 s10. daily driver, 31" tires, 4x4, cat! and exhaust. looking for mpg.

  19. #19
    Is there a 1 bar enhanced map sensor that we can use? Hp tuners help guide refers to several different enhanced map sensors that can be used by selecting it in the OS tab, and writing an "write entire" to the car...do we have access to this?

    also, was anyone able to find out what the numbers in the ve table actually mean?
    2002 LS1 Camaro - (12.9@104mph) 3.73 gears/3600 stall/corsa exhaust/tuned/Ford 8.8 rear end
    1996 3800 camaro-- (13.4@100mph) Heads/Cam/Geared/Stalled/Ford 8.8 rear end
    2008 Chevy Colorado - Daily Driver / Off-Road
    Camarov6.com | Project Cars | 5th Gen Camaro Specs | How-to Guides

  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Down View Post
    If you unplug the 02's the pcm will see 0 volts and the trims will go + max value trying to correct the fueling error.
    That's not what happened when I unplugged my front 02 sensor.
    2005 Grand Prix GTP
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