3 bar MAP's

[Jaxon]

You can get the map sensors with built pigtails for $89, then download the tune and POOF, you have a "staged" car. You can command more boost than 22psi, not 100% sure since I have not actually logged and tuned my friends 09 staged cobalt. Hes rolling with the first tune that I put on his car.

Geoff, Yes its in the lower IC piping after the IC.

Also, you cant copy and paste tables that we dont have unlocked lol.

[schaid]

Let's stop and think about this for a minute...more than 22psi from a k04 turbo...I'm no engineer, but this certainly seems like it's pushing the turbo beyond it's efficiency range. On top of that...we can only log up to 255kpa until they fix the issue with the scanner.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather upgrade to a turbo that can make more power on the same boost level than try to push a turbo that I'm fairly certain isn't making much more power over 22psi anyway.

[otherguy84]

A bit of a side question but ever since I put the 3 bar sensors on my colbalt ss, hp tuners doesn't seem to read boost correctly, whether its psi or kpa. The rpd seems to read it properly but it doesn't match up with hptuners. Any ideas why this would be?

Thanks,

[BackyardTurbo_FTW]

The turbo only loses 2% efficiency going to 24-25psi and another 2% going to 28-30psi. Still isn't TOO bad out to 35psi down low lol..

[Iam Broke]

A bit of a side question but ever since I put the 3 bar sensors on my colbalt ss, hp tuners doesn't seem to read boost correctly, whether its psi or kpa. The rpd seems to read it properly but it doesn't match up with hptuners. Any ideas why this would be?

Thanks,

I believe the stock sensors are 2.7 bar and the new ones are 3 bar (approx 44psi absolute) it's probably a scaling issue. Once I get them in I'll check it out but you should be able to create a custom PID for it to log & display correctly.

[Jaxon]

HPT can only read 255kpa no matter what the sensors read. Also, these turbos can push 30psi down low and be fine, its just not gonna last long. 25psi is fine IMO. I think the stage sensors will help people who plan to go BT in the future.

[otherguy84]

Thanks so much Iam Broke. I was trying to find a scaling option but I didn't even think about setting up a custom pid. I'll give that a try as soon as I get out of work. You guys are great!

[Jaxon]

we need the id of whatever the rpd uses to monitor boost. a custom pid might work, I've posted the number that I figured out would equal out to what it should read, 5.7xxx instead of 6.8xxx but I never got to test it on a staged car. good luck everyone lol.

[BackyardTurbo_FTW]

Even if you get the code for that sensor you are still limited to the HPT's 255kpa. So you have to do the scalar trick.

[Jaxon]

that sucks, maybe after fueling we can ask for 300kpa. I wonder if well ever get any more tables lol. where has t2 been on these threads? did he just stop coming on here, I saw him post on css lol

[shabby]

Even if you get the code for that sensor you are still limited to the HPT's 255kpa. So you have to do the scalar trick.

Or wire up the 5v output from the sensor into the mpvi pro, i plan to do this soon.

[Iam Broke]

that sucks, maybe after fueling we can ask for 300kpa. I wonder if well ever get any more tables lol. where has t2 been on these threads? did he just stop coming on here, I saw him post on css lol

Not much from him today, I think he gets busy in real life.

[Jaxon]

lol im sure he has a life, I just meant I havnt seen him post up here in about a week. not since he's actually got his stage kit stuff installed. I figure he's got the most knowledge on this subject now lol.

[GeoffH]

any luck with this, very curious on the install and the effects

[Iam Broke]

My sensors haven't shipped yet afaik, Dave's on vacation. Not sure if I'll still do it or not.

I believe Term2 is still running the adj pill to get the boost he wants even with the GMPP, not sure though since he changes it up more than I do.

I hate to speak for him too much but he thinks it'll be an advantage if you go large turbo.

[ksoggs]

So exactly what are the benefits of the new map sensors and tune? Seems like there are only minor changes in the tune and only a few tables have had the scales changed, but we can do that ourselves without paying GM $500 plus to do it for us.

I just had a huge debate with one of the engineers from GM who supposedly worked on the stage kit. And he claims that the stage tune is completely re-written OS. It is like a new "version" of the computers software, and not at all just a tune. It supposedly deals with many situations much better, it is better designed for higher boost levels, and it is written for the 3bar Map's.
If any of you were in the cavalier tuning crowd... the stage kit is supposed to be similar to the "gmpp supercharger tune" for the Z24 2.4L. Which became the holy grail of OS's for anyone boosting the twincam engine (if you dont know, the twincam "ld9" was the previous generation of the ecotec, and it was based off of the quad4 which came before it.)

Less-important to us... but one of the biggest "features" of the stage software is the elimination of the "learn down" issue, which supposedly would not allow your car to notice any gains out of aftermarket parts unless you were specifically "tuned" for them". Because the LNF is a Torque based system, everything is based around torque. From GM the car is rated at 260hp 260ft/lbs... so the computer is "pre-set" to give you that... so if it is a hot day and the air is thin, the computer will compensate by adding timing or boost or whatever, to get you to 260/260 on a crappy day... likewise on a good day... cold dense air and and all.. the computer will pull timing and boost etc to keep you at 260/260. Well... if you bolt on a 3" exhaust and downpipe, and throw on some charge pipes, and maybe an intake.... but dont tune... the computer will just think "man it is a REALLY nice day, too bad gm told me only 260/260" and it will scale back the engine to keep you at the rated power, even with all your mods.
Supposedly the Stage Kit changes that "always 260/260" to "at least 260/260" and so it will "learn up" but no longer "learn down"... But for us HPT folks... it is not a big deal, because we have easy access to the torque tables as it is... so if we add some parts that allow us more torque, we can just bump the table (if we havent already). But this is a huge deal for the bolt-on crowd that doesnt tune.

Let's stop and think about this for a minute...more than 22psi from a k04 turbo...I'm no engineer, but this certainly seems like it's pushing the turbo beyond it's efficiency range. On top of that...we can only log up to 255kpa until they fix the issue with the scanner.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather upgrade to a turbo that can make more power on the same boost level than try to push a turbo that I'm fairly certain isn't making much more power over 22psi anyway.

Alright then Crazy, just my personal opinion here... but I would imagine it is a bit of a cost versus gains thing here... Yes, much more boost will begin to get out of its "efficiency range" but all that means really is you are going to be getting a larger side of heat when you supersize your Boost value meal. I am have pushed over 30psi on my K04 and still temps stay below 100.. and i for one can tell you it makes a whole lot more power even with the added heat.
Of course a bigger turbo could do it better, and surely could go alot further.... but what is the cost of parts and labor to properly swap to a different turbo? And if you are trying to work within the confines of hpt, and unwilling to get a lil creative, I would think you would be paying alot of cash just to gain a little bit of efficiency working within these confines. I would think that pushing the stock turbo a lil further, and upgrading your charge cooling to make up for the heat would be far cheaper than a turbo swap. Maybe an upgraded IC, or IC sprayer, or meth injection...

[imphat0260]

I just had a huge debate with one of the engineers from GM who supposedly worked on the stage kit. And he claims that the stage tune is completely re-written OS. It is like a new "version" of the computers software, and not at all just a tune. It supposedly deals with many situations much better, it is better designed for higher boost levels, and it is written for the 3bar Map's.
If any of you were in the cavalier tuning crowd... the stage kit is supposed to be similar to the "gmpp supercharger tune" for the Z24 2.4L. Which became the holy grail of OS's for anyone boosting the twincam engine (if you dont know, the twincam "ld9" was the previous generation of the ecotec, and it was based off of the quad4 which came before it.)

Less-important to us... but one of the biggest "features" of the stage software is the elimination of the "learn down" issue, which supposedly would not allow your car to notice any gains out of aftermarket parts unless you were specifically "tuned" for them". Because the LNF is a Torque based system, everything is based around torque. From GM the car is rated at 260hp 260ft/lbs... so the computer is "pre-set" to give you that... so if it is a hot day and the air is thin, the computer will compensate by adding timing or boost or whatever, to get you to 260/260 on a crappy day... likewise on a good day... cold dense air and and all.. the computer will pull timing and boost etc to keep you at 260/260. Well... if you bolt on a 3" exhaust and downpipe, and throw on some charge pipes, and maybe an intake.... but dont tune... the computer will just think "man it is a REALLY nice day, too bad gm told me only 260/260" and it will scale back the engine to keep you at the rated power, even with all your mods.
Supposedly the Stage Kit changes that "always 260/260" to "at least 260/260" and so it will "learn up" but no longer "learn down"... But for us HPT folks... it is not a big deal, because we have easy access to the torque tables as it is... so if we add some parts that allow us more torque, we can just bump the table (if we havent already). But this is a huge deal for the bolt-on crowd that doesnt tune.

And this is new news? The "learn down" has really not been an issue for anybody on here that I am aware of. As for the 3 bar sensors, we have a few of the "stage" tunes floating around here and have been using the sensors on those files.

Alright then Crazy, just my personal opinion here... but I would imagine it is a bit of a cost versus gains thing here... Yes, much more boost will begin to get out of its "efficiency range" but all that means really is you are going to be getting a larger side of heat when you supersize your Boost value meal. I am have pushed over 30psi on my K04 and still temps stay below 100.. and i for one can tell you it makes a whole lot more power even with the added heat. Of course a bigger turbo could do it better, and surely could go alot further.... but what is the cost of parts and labor to properly swap to a different turbo? And if you are trying to work within the confines of hpt, and unwilling to get a lil creative, I would think you would be paying alot of cash just to gain a little bit of efficiency working within these confines. I would think that pushing the stock turbo a lil further, and upgrading your charge cooling to make up for the heat would be far cheaper than a turbo swap. Maybe an upgraded IC, or IC sprayer, or meth injection...

Just to save a bunch of pointless posts from being made, I am going to say this.. Ken, I know you like to debate. Matter of fact, you are a "master debater" . Point being, I and others have had many discussions with you on JBO and it always boils down to this. You seem to know everything, you have done the research, and nobody can tell you otherwise... Lets not clutter this board up also...

[ksoggs]

And this is new news? The "learn down" has really not been an issue for anybody on here that I am aware of. As for the 3 bar sensors, we have a few of the "stage" tunes floating around here and have been using the sensors on those files.

Did i say any of this is "new news" Someone asked what was to gain over just "copy and pasting the data from the stage kit" so i explained. It wasnt a news flash. it was an answer to someones question.

I am pretty sure I pointed out...

Less-important to us... but one of the biggest "features" of the stage software is the elimination of the "learn down" issue.....

But for us HPT folks... it is not a big deal, because we have easy access to the torque tables as it is...

Just to save a bunch of pointless posts from being made, I am going to say this.. Ken, I know you like to debate. Matter of fact, you are a "master debater" . Point being, I and others have had many discussions with you on JBO and it always boils down to this. You seem to know everything, you have done the research, and nobody can tell you otherwise... Lets not clutter this board up also...

Ok... speaking of clutter... I responded to the questions of 2 different people and tried to share what i know with the community. I offered up information and solutions and ideas. What exactly did your post here contribute to the betterment of the forum? So who is cluttering?

if you feel you need to respond and start drama, why dont you PM me... i doubt anyone here wants to hear it.

[imphat0260]

Did i say any of this is "new news" Someone asked what was to gain over just "copy and pasting the data from the stage kit" so i explained. It wasnt a news flash. it was an answer to someones question.

I am pretty sure I pointed out...








Ok... speaking of clutter... I responded to the questions of 2 different people and tried to share what i know with the community. I offered up information and solutions and ideas. What exactly did your post here contribute to the betterment of the forum? So who is cluttering?

if you feel you need to respond and start drama, why dont you PM me... i doubt anyone here wants to hear it.

And so it begins......

[BackyardTurbo_FTW]

I have dyno proof comparing 22psi to 30psi and there is a significant mid range improvement. 40-50whp thru the mid and another ~30wtq.