OK guys, start posting.....

[guardsman01]

Let us know what you've done, what works, what doesn't etc.

I just flashed mine for the first time, I moved PE to 50% throttle across the board, except for 0 and 800rpm (no point there), adjusted my TCC apply speeds, and PE AFR ratios (I just cut and pasted the 2400rpm line to 1600, 3200 to 2400, and so on, so that 4200 and up are the same).

It makes a noticeable difference. Oh yeah, and put the torque management retard to 0 through 50%.

Now, I need to play with the timing, so, any ideas are welcome. John

[PiLOTLiTE]

I can't change my speedo at all, are you having the same issue?

Also, can you explain how and what you've done so far and why you've done it a little more? I'd like to learn all I can before I go changing things =)

[guardsman01]

Hey,
Yeah, I'm having the same issue with my speedo. Get ahold of Keith, he said they have a fix on their webserver (need your customer login).

Other than that, I've been playing with my tranny shift times (I only recommend this if you have a serious shift kit) I have a basically custom set-up tranny, so I decreased my shift times, which is nice.

As for PE, I made my 0 and 400 RPM PE values 75 (75% throttle, you're not going to get anything useful out of PE at those levels when idle is 725).

I made everything else 50%.

I also altered my PE EnrichmentvsRPMvsTime (you'll see which one I mean, it's on the fuel control page). All I've done there so far is take the existing values, and start gradually moving them down in the rpm and time ranges (i.e., taking the 6400rpm tables, and pasting them on the 4000 and up tables, moving the 4000 tables to 3600, etc.)

The last thing was making my Retard vs Power Reduction (Under Engine Torque Management) 0 through 50%, and then scaling it up from there, so I have some protection in case something goes really wrong (If the PCM is commanding 50% torque reduction, then there's a serious problem).

Just look at the stuff carefully, and you'll see where I'm talking about. Your best bet is if you don't know for sure what it is, don't mess with it.

I'll be around. Talk to you later. John

[Black_97_GTP]

Lets see.

First off i have played with the maf table a bunch. My car uses an ls6 maf. I found out that l67's need to run a hybrid l67/ls6 maf table. This is because the ls6 is showing les air passing through up to the 6200hz range. As a result it like to throw the long terms a bit out of wack.

I have scaled for different injectors but not with a lot of luck. But that appears to be the injectors fault. I will know for sure on that next week.

Torque managment, i have found that the car is a bit more behaved in normal driving situations with some still intact. Infact since my car utilizes a performance shift button i kept normal all stock with torque manment and performance shift is balls to the wall. I do have some torque mangment in place with performance shift on incase something were to go wrong. I can specfy more what i have done exactly if anyone wants to know.

increasing the rev limtier and shift points have helped to keep my car in its power band much longer then before. In stock form i was shifting at 5300rpm. I have a modified valve train and this was costing me a good deal of et out of the car.

I like the fact of being able to adjust my fans to come on whenever, kinda made my caspers fan switch a track only thing.

I haven't messed much with my PE table yet. As my car is running great right now with no knock and good amount of fueling. i also have left the timing table alone even though i could probably throw 1-3 degrees more into the setup. I waisted alot of time flashing and messing around trying to scale for my larger injectors. And it appears that i might have at least one faulty 50lb injector if not more. As i said i will no for sure next week as i'm having the injectors flow tested.

Thats all i can think of right now from memory as i don't have my log in front of me with all the changes performed. I can say this much the tuning i did really woke the car up.

[Seppo_Kaitainen]

Please step away from the crack pipe




As far as the speedo, you have to alter the PPM by hand. ie 3.23 to 3.42 is stock ppm times (3.42 divided by 3.23.)

I would not mess w/ the PE table until you can get a wide band. Or atleast go to the track to see if you gain/lose via changes to the PE vs RPM table.

I have survivied a trip to the track spinning to 6200, and have seen 6300+ on the scanning software between shifts.

[Dom]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Are you one of those guys who makes changes without knowing your current values?

Every car is different and with different mods will need different settings. You can't just change PE table to a certain value just because.

[Black_97_GTP]

Are you referring to me. I haven't changed anything in my pe table or timing tables????? ???

[Dom]

Are you referring to me. I haven't changed anything in my pe table or timing tables????? ???

No, the first guy.

[guardsman01]

"Are you one of those guys who makes changes without knowing your current values?

Every car is different and with different mods will need different settings. You can't just change PE table to a certain value just because."

I know what the current values are, I still have my entire stock file, in case I need to go back to it, or check it......So, I don't get what you're point is there.....

And yes, every car is different, and will need different settings. It's called tuning. I'm not changing my PE tables just because, I'm looking at what's currently there, how the car is behaving, making a change, and seeing if it has any effect.

I don't know about you, but I don't have access to a master tuner with a full shop, and I'm not quite an engineer, so I have to do my tuning the old fashioned way, it's called making a WAG, and seeing what happens.

I didn't know that there was any prescribed way to go about tuning a car, especially when there aren't a whole lot of people around with experience tuning V6s to the extent that is possible now.

So, if you have something constructive to add, like "If you do that, you'll blow your motor up, I know because I did it", that's constructive.

Your comments aren't, because nobody gets any useful information from them.

Thanks. John

[Dom]

I'm not changing my PE tables just because, I'm looking at what's currently there, how the car is behaving, making a change, and seeing if it has any effect.
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Why don't you be more specific here then. All you posted was that your changed some values around for no reason at all. You still didn't post why you did what you did and how that helps the performance. I just read your original post and I can't find any reason behind what you did. You say what you did, but why? Explain please.
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I don't know about you, but I don't have access to a master tuner with a full shop, and I'm not quite an engineer, so I have to do my tuning the old fashioned way, it's called making a WAG, and seeing what happens.
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That's ridiculous. Get your car on a wideband and see where you are and then make your changes. You can't just blindly change things.
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I didn't know that there was any prescribed way to go about tuning a car, especially when there aren't a whole lot of people around with experience tuning V6s to the extent that is possible now.
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So tuning V6s is so drastically different from tuning V8s? They operate in pretty similar way, don't you think. I tuned my V6 just like a V8 back when I had a MAFT+ and I'll tune is the same way once again once I get my car on a wideband. Here is a thread to start you off.



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So, if you have something constructive to add, like "If you do that, you'll blow your motor up, I know because I did it", that's constructive.
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Why do I get the have a feeling you'll be saying that soon.
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Your comments aren't, because nobody gets any useful information from them.

Thanks. John

[PiLOTLiTE]

The last thing was making my Retard vs Power Reduction (Under Engine Torque Management) 0 through 50%, and then scaling it up from there, so I have some protection in case something goes really wrong (If the PCM is commanding 50% torque reduction, then there's a serious problem).

This doesn't make sense to me. In the torque reduction vs torque vs shift table, the max % reduction is set at 10. Therefore, how can the PCM command any more than 10% reduction (which corresponds to 16 degrees of retard in the retard vs %tq reduction table).

[guardsman01]

Dom,
I'm not looking to getting into a pissing match here......I see where you're looking for specifics, but you come across like quite a few people often do on firebirdv6.com with the "why did you do that, you're an idiot" attitude......

In any case, I'm away from home right now...I found a shop that has a wideband, but the guy needs it to tune the cars he has there in the meantime...so I have to wait until I can make use of it before I borrow it from him.....

Until then, I know from my previous research that these engines were detuned from the beginning by GM......things like having PE set at 75% throttle.....

So, I set my PE point to 50% throttle, as, from my experience driving, I can safely put it there, without having to worry about the engine running in PE all the time, but it helps the car in getting up and going when I want it to.....

As to the changes I made, as I said, all I did initially was take the PE AFR Adder (I'm talking about the PE AFR Adder values here, not the PE Base AFR values) amounts that were in the 25.6s block, and move them up to the 0 second block....they were pretty much useless where they were originally, because how often am I going to be running the engine at WOT, and at any one RPM, for 25.6s?

When I moved them up, I noticed a significant difference in the acceleration of the car...so, when I confirmed that the change I made worked as I expected it to, I then started moving the max PE AFR adder value down in the RPM range.

Originally, I kept it at a gradual increase, but eventually, I just made the Adder amounts the same across the board....

I have been using both the HP Tuner scanner, and Ease, so I haven't been doing this completely in the blind....

As to tuning the V6s, yes, mechanically, they work the same way as the V8s, but the cam profiles,and fuel and timing tables are not the same as the V8s....The tuning concepts are also the same, but the starting points are different....

Just like you said every car is different, and needs to be tuned accordingly, same thing with V8s and V6s....what works for tuning a V8 may not work on a V6....

And I posted here in the V8 tuning section, asking if anybody had any good starting points, and I got nothing in response.....

So, until we get more V6 guys with tuning experience under their belt, i.e., familiar enough to know the general nuances and quirks of our engine and the tuning of it, I'm in the dark....

If you have anything to help out, I'll be more than glad to accept it, and if there's anything that I can help with I'm more than glad to offer it.....

Right now, though, other than a few odds and ends things, I'm not going to get into specifics about what I'm doing, because, other than my transmission changes, I'm still working on what works, and what doesn't.

John

[guardsman01]

This doesn't make sense to me. In the torque reduction vs torque vs shift table, the max % reduction is set at 10. Therefore, how can the PCM command any more than 10% reduction (which corresponds to 16 degrees of retard in the retard vs %tq reduction table).

They're two separate tables....the transmission table you're looking at only reduces torque during shifts, IF you have it enabled, so it operates independently of the engine torque reduction table...

The Engine Torque Management is for drivetrain protection....if the PCM thinks something is wrong, it uses the Retard vs % Torque Reduction table to reduce engine power, to protect the drivetrain.


Hope that helps... John

[Chris@HPTuners]

Retard vs % torque reduction is the amount of retard commanded for all torque reduction events.

HTH.

Chris...

[jimmyblue]

To be more clear (if I've got this clear, myself)...

The torque management / reduction functions work on
the basis of a commanded torque % reduction. This is
what the PCM wants to happen. It is what you should
be changing, to alter or squash TM, etc. For example,
I have altered my TM tables to flatline delivered torque
at 400lb-ft through the shifts by changing the torque
reduction vs torque vs shift table values to make it
so (1-(TR%/100))*TQ=400 in all cells over 400 TQ.
This eliminates the TM "bog" about town, and cuts
it while still delivering decent acceleration through the
shifts at mid to full throttle.

The spark vs TM reduction table is the "map" that is
used to make a specific torque reduction amount
occur. This is something GM figured out and made a
map of, and unless you know somehow that you
need 10 degrees of spark pullout to make a 50%
reduction, instead of 15 degrees, (or whatever)
it's best not to make blind changes. It -is- one way
to kill TM effects, but it's chainsaw surgery, eyes
closed.

[guardsman01]

Chris,

That's what I meant, but thanks for clarifying it (I didn't make that clear in my post ) ...

Jimmyblue, the retard vs % torque reduction is the amount of timing that will be retarded in response to the PCM's command to reduce torque (It will show up on a scanner as PCM Commanded Torque, so if PCM Commanded Torque is 60%, then the retard is 40%.

In the Retard vs Torque table, whatever timing reduction is under 40% is how much timing the PCM will pull.

The PCM will command torque reduction to protect the powertrain, so the torque reduction is in effect as long as the PCM is commanding reduced torque.


As for the Transmission Shift Torque Reduction, all that does is reduce the engine torque at each shift point, to reduce the stress on the transmission.

That torque reduction is a percentage of engine torque, not timing.....the PCM computes estimated torque, and uses that to control various functions.

Hope that helps make the mud a little more opaque

John

[Chris@HPTuners]

yes there are two ways to skin this cat

[Dom]

Guardsman, that's all I was asking for and you explained it well. Alot of people make blanket statemens like "lean out the car and add timing." What they don't understand is that the car could be already running pretty lean from the mods and leaning it out will only hurt it. That's why a good starting point is either O2s or dyno. I like to do O2s first, then dyno so you're kinda in the range you want to be and use the wideband to fine tune it.

I haven't touched the PE tables and shift speeds cause I don't understand them. I have a build trans that shifts pretty fast so I don't really see the benefit of adding more speed to the shifts. I'm paranoid about blowing another trans. This is my 3rd one. Plus I don't know how much shift speed to put and same for pressure.

When you have time, go over the basics with the PE tables. Explain more cause I have a hard time seeing the basics behind it. I see how it improved acceleration and that was good, but why did it improve acceleration? What exactly happened there?

All I tuned for before was air/fuel and timing. Got good results doing it and will probably do that again with hptuners but of course with way more precision. Then I'll move into the more complicated stuff.

Funny thing is, I was going to post that I don't want to see another firebirdv6 tech section develop here as people migrate over. I see all that bad advice with no basis and it's not something I want to see here. Thats why I asked why why why? Didn't want to come off sounding like an ass.

[guardsman01]

Dom,
No Problem, that was exactly the same thing I didn't want to see here.

For the shift times, you don't want to make them too short, or you will risk ending up with two gears applied at the same time.

With the shift kit I have in, all I did was take .025 seconds off the shifts the first time, and saw how that worked, and then took another .025 seconds off, and that's where I like it.

The Shift Time is simply the amount of time that the between when the PCM is going to command the next solenoid (gear) to engage, and the current solenoid (gear) to release.

You want a bit of overlap, if you don't have any overlap, then you get the equivalent of standing on the gas, and pushing the clutch in, then dumping the clutch.

If you have too much overlap, then you get the two gears fighting each other, and in some instances, you can end up with the wrong gear.

As an example, 4th gear (on the 4L60E) is the 3/4 clutches and the 2/4 band applied.

So, with just the 2/4 band applied, you get 2nd gear, with just the 3/4 clutches applied, you get 3rd gear.

So, if you have too much overlap on the 2/3 shift, the tranny will go into 4th until the band releases.

Anyhow, how much time you want will basically be a matter of feel.

Stock, the 4L60E is set up by GM to have a lot of overlap, because it makes for a nice, easy shift.

Without a shift kit, the apply speed is also regulated, to slow it down, for the same reason, to soften the shift.

With a shift kit, you allow more fluid in more quickly, hence the band/clutch(s) apply moire quickly.

However, without reprogramming the shift speeds commanded by the PCM, you are still getting the same amount of overlap, so you could be killing your speed.

So, that's the shift speed thing. If you want more info on what I have set up, let me know (my tranny is now built to the equivalent of a 4L65E, and I use a synthetic Type-F equivalent fluid).

As to the tranny pressure, you don't want to run too much, so I didn't change much.

What I did was take the 6% line pressure values, and copied them over to the 0% line pressure values.

I did this because (using Ease, which shows my Force Motor (Pressure Solenoid) current), at idle/light throttle, the PCM was commanding 1.1 Amps to the Force Motor, which is minimum line pressure.

I don't want minimum line pressure, because it could allow the friction surfaces to slip. So, I just limited the 0% (minimum) line pressure to the 6% line pressure value.

So, no real increase in line pressure, just limiting how low it will go.

The other value that I changed was the 100% Line Pressure Value, I actually used the 80 or 90% value, so I limited the max line pressure a bit.

[guardsman01]

(Continuing)

With the PE AFR Adder tables.

You'll notice, there are 3...there is the Base PE AFR table, the PE AFR Adder vs TPS%, and the PE AFR Adder tables.

The Base PE AFR is what the PCM will make the base Air Fuel Ratio in Power Enrichment (using the MAF and MAP to determine the AFR, since the O2s will be out of the loop in PE). Stock is 13.000.

The PE AF Adder vs TPS% allows you to add to the PE AFR at different throttle positions, but there's a glitch right now, which they are working on fixing (the numbers aren't saving right).

The PE AFR Adder is the one I adjusted, and the one that is odd how GM set it up.

If you look at it, it based on RPM and the Amount of Time (0 to 25.6s or so seconds) at the RPM.

Basically, if you think about it, how often would you hold a specific RPM range? But, you have to get to like 15 seconds in one RPM range before you start getting any significant addition.

Remember - these enrichment values are IN ADDITION to the Base AFR value, and they are "opposite" - a negative value makes it richer, and a positive value makes it leaner. So, if you stick in -6.00 in this table, and the base AFR is 13.00, you're going to get a PE enrichment of 7.00, which is useless.

Anyhow, I initially just moved the values forward in the RPM range, I used the same values, but I started them at 1600 rpm instead of whatever the stock RPM was.

The other thing was to move all of the maximum values up to 0 seconds, so the additional enrichment would kick in right away.

Just doing that made a difference.

I then made the Adder value -3.999, just to see what it would do, and the acceleration was a bit better, but the main thing it did was to start sucking gas like a pig, so I am adjusting those back down tonight.

The main thing to remember once you start playing with this stuff, like you said, is that you don't want to go too lean.

So, if you run them really rich, and suck down a bunch of gas, oh well, it's better than grenading the motor.

I hope that helps explain them a bit.....I don't know why GM set everything up the way they did (like use the same basic set-up as the V8s, and just tailor it for the V6s, that would make tuning so much easier), but, they turned this thing into a major cluster****.

Let me know if I can help with anything else...John