Am I missing something here (04 Redline E85 tuning)

[dont_blink]

So admittedly I didn't touch a car last year in any way other than maintenence on my own vehicles. No tuning, grease work, nothing. I am usually pretty heavy with it. I have tuned tons of LSJs with E85, nitrous, methanol, C16, turbo, Harrops, you name it. This year I decided to run my Ion Redline on E85 again. Two years ago I had my old 04 Redline with a Harrop, built motor, ID1000cc injectors, return fuel system, E85, the works. And it ran butter smooth, all the time. This 04 car is different and I feel it is because I slacked last year and maybe forgot some things. All I have done is a 2.8 pulley on the stock blower, intake, full length header and catless full 3" exhaust system, 60s, and it's running E85. NGK BKR7E gapped to .035". The car is super fun on the highway and in cruising gears. But around town it is jerky as hell, has a terrible stumbling idle when I slow down that stalls the car out 50% of the time, other times the idle just bounces bad. When I go to take off after sitting for a minute or two the car bogs like it's going to stall, almost as if it was loaded up with fuel. I have looked over and over the tune. My wideband says all is good, fuel trims aren't crazy off most of the time around town (admitedly on the highway they are, but the car still runs a bit lean). Someone help please! I have attached a long log, the current tune I have gotten to somewhat work, and the config I use. I am just stumped at this point. You can see where the idle surge comes in bad at the very end of the log. And at about frame 10660 is where the car has been sitting at a redlight for a minute and I go to take off. It bucks and stalls out and goes obviously super rich before I can get going.

[CarsonTech]

If these are the 60 pounders everyone else has been running in their LSJs, then I would start with this example of the injector data Greg Banish has. I think these are the same injectors:

http://www.trafficjams.ca/Performanc...rDetails60.htm

The data is not all there to grab, as the provider doesn't want to give it away, since Banish worked so hard to gather that data.

You can find some files in the repository that has great examples of this data. I could not find any files that has this great data for the "Offset vs Volts vs VAC" table in the "resolution" for the PCM/OS most LSJs use. I only looked through 4 files, so far, that has been tagged as having Siemens 60 pound injector, in the repository. They were all LSX PCM/OS files, though, so some of the resolution and certain table are a little differn't.

Greg Banish's injector data included in his DVD package may include all the data for these 60 pounders so we can fill all the tables in the LSJ ECU tables fully and correctly.

I don't have Banish's DVD and injectors data, yet. Hopefully I can get the package soon and change fix all my "raped" tunes.

[laser_racer]

How come you are running on 60lb injectors on a 2.8? I did a e-85 tune with a 04 redline on 60s but he was only on a stg2 pulley and on those he was almost maxing out the injectors. Here is the tune.

[dont_blink]

I actually meant 2.7 pulley. The 60s are still under 100% idc by 7000rpm even on a cold day. I am using 9.7 as stoich and a lambda of .86 in PE. 60s are totally useable on a 2.7 with E85. But that's not the problem. The problem I am having is idle/low rpm driving. It has me stumped still.

[Google]

Carson Tech is correct. The only thing you have correct in the injector data is the flow rate.



.

[Google]

How come you are running on 60lb injectors on a 2.8? I did a e-85 tune with a 04 redline on 60s but he was only on a stg2 pulley and on those he was almost maxing out the injectors. Here is the tune.

The injector data in his tune is not correct, even the flow rate has an error.




..

[dont_blink]

These are the numbers I have used for years in cars with 60s and have worked flawlessly until this car on E85. It even ran butter smooth on gas. Perhaps I got my numbers mixed somewhere.

Google, would you care to expand? The screen shots you are showing don't really help much. And I don't see anything wrong with Laser Racers numbers. Those look the same as we have all been using for years. The ones on that Traffic Jam website are a tad low in the IFR it seems.

[CarsonTech]

Where did you get the data for these injectors? Did you take the injector manufacture's data and convert/interpolate? Did you get it from someone that did?

As Google said, the injector data in your tune doesn't look correct. I know you read and heard this a million times, but... a tune with "bad" injector data is going to get bad data baked into the VE and MAF tables. The car may run GREAT. When you change another variable, like going to e85 and chaining stoich to match the fuel your running, and when expect it to at least be a little within the ball bark, you will see the problems and just end up chasing your tail.

Of course there will be a little retuning of the MAF and VE tables to get it all in line, but with the "wrong" injector data, it's just baking more error in. Then the little problems, low rpm bucking, surging, ect start getting worse, and will never end. That is, until you can get the most accurate injector data you can find, and start from scratch.

There are a few people that take the manufacture's data, which is basically ready to be thrown into a Ford tune, convert it to "GM values" and interpolate that data for it to work. I don't think I have seen anyone with the same offsets after converting the data. Not to mention the short pulse adder. Most are close, which I am guessing is close enough when converting the manufactures Ford data into usable GM data for us to use....

I know there is a spreadsheet for these 60's that Omega did. I believe he went through the same conversion process with the help of a buddy of his. Or they could have just used an extremely expensive piece of equipment to get this data from some injectors they had,, assume perfect quality control from the injector manufacture, and throw there data they "measured" out for others to use. I'm guessing here. They supplied some SPA ("low slope") data at first, then told everyone to just 0 that whole table out for these injectors. Not sure why they did that.

Schafer (spelling?) also has some data for these injectors. I'm not sure if he used the conversion or not. He has some threads in this section of the forum.

I would check out Banish's data, Omega's spreadsheet, and Schafer's data, for these injectors. Not knocking Omega or Schafer, but Banish's books helped me alot, so I feel I can trust him more.

Or you could look at Injector Dynamic's injectors and the process they use to get there data. There injectors that are comparable to these "60s" are waayyyy better if there data and research shown on there website is correct. Plus they supply the data with there injectors that is ready to drop into HP tuners, not data converted and interpolated from Ford data, but "measured" data.

[omega_5]

I would check out Banish's data, Omega's spreadsheet, and Schafer's data, for these injectors. Not knocking Omega or Schafer, but Banish's books helped me alot, so I feel I can trust him more.

FYI... my injector data came from the same source, which is why I'm baffled that people don't use it more.
It's just in a more friendly table, with some tweaks to suit the LSJ's quirks.

While I do have access to a dynamic flow bench, I did not use it for that spreadsheet for the reason you mentioned; I can't guarantee that the manufacture has a consistent process and that I did not receive an 'extreme' batch.
From my perspective, just like the Banish spreadsheet is a generally good source of data, the LSJ spreadsheet I have made available is equally as generalized. If someone was to require an exact injector datasheet, it would be best to send them all to Paul Yaw (aka Yaw Power, aka Injector Dynamics) and get them all custom spec'd.

[CarsonTech]

Thanks for the info Omega, and thanks for your contribution of your injector data to the community.

[omega_5]

Thanks for the info Omega, and thanks for your contribution of your injector data to the community.

Not a problem at all. I'm just happy to help out.
I should note that 04Redline also deserves big credit for that spreadsheet as well.

The only thing I ever ask in return is for people to pay it forward, and keep contributing to the community. The Honda tuner scene didn't get big by being secretive... rather by helping each other out.

[dont_blink]

Thanks Omega. Yours looks WAY different than the ones from years past. It took me a while to find it and get it downloaded and working as it is in the XSLM file format and I have XP with open office 2.0 on my tuning laptop lol. The numbers I was used to using came from Shaffer a long time ago and they honestly worked with minimal MAS/VE rescaling on MANY cars over the years. I guess it just caught up to me in a car that is finally finicky. Thanks again for the support. I will be sure to pass this on (hoping it is the fix I need for my issues) to others seeking the same advice. I am all for the Ecotec community advancement.