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Thread: New tuner... new tune!

  1. #21
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    I posted this up earlier in my big block of text: You will want to get your burst knock setup too as it will be pulling timing, do not completely 0 it out as it does a good job of prevent real knock when setup correctly. It is located under Spark > Retard > Burst knock retard > enable delta cyl air. I would set all your values above 2000 rpm to .100 or so and go from there, if you're seeing a large change in cylinder airmass it will pull a few degrees of timing to prevent knock, if it's pulling too much timing just multiply by 25% until you're liking.

    With the stock values around .022 anytime you make a quick throttle transition the computer will pull a predicted amount of timing up to what the max retard vs rpm table will allow. A .022 change in cylinder airmass is miniscule, you will see more change while sneezing lol. I know alot of people disable it completely but I like to set the feature up to work for me. My setup has a bit of boost creep and the way my burst knock table is setup it pulls a little extra timing because of the extra change in cylinder airmass from additional boost. I leave the stock values in the burst knock vs rpm table, but you could set that up however you like. Just make sure you scan burst knock in your chart view so you can physically see what it is doing while getting into the throttle.

    Another table I noticed you may want to tweak is the Fuel > Power Enrich > PE enable TPS > Cold table. Now this is totally dependent on how and when your turbo builds boost. But the way you have it setup now, @ 3600 rpm you are required to be above 60% TPS before power enrichment requirements. I would say at quite a bit less than 60% tps you could be well into boost but the commanded AFR would be stoich, not a good scenario. The way I setup my table is anything above 2000 rpm requires 38% tps. I can hit full boost even at 50% tps so it's always good practice to be in PE while in boost. This is one of those tables you will have to tweak though, as you don't want to be in power enrichment all the time while going up steeper grades, not the best for fuel economy or part throttle torque thats for sure.
    Last edited by Nitroused383; 08-16-2011 at 05:54 AM.

  2. #22
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    Jason, I apologize for missing that before. I'm hoping I can get out a bit tonight and try out all these changes. My goal will be to have some more data to post up. Thanks again for the patience!

    -Brad

  3. #23
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    No apology needed, I probably overwhelmed you with a massive amount of text. It all blurs together for me at times too. I almost forgot to send you the Cylinder Charge Temp Bias filter table I have also changed. I am sure with your knowledge / ability to filter and manipulate data you will be able to come up with a much better bias table than myself. I work night shift so my bias settings are nothing too scientific, I log my cruise to work in the mid afternoon temps. Than I would log my VE changes on my cruise home at 2 am where the temps could be anywhere from 30-40 degrees cooler. I just kept tweaking values (still tweaking all the time) until I could keep my VE error % values similar from day to night. I'm a lot closer but still need more testing.

    Keep in mind anytime you make changes to your Bias table you will need to retune your VE table as calculations the computer is making for fueling have changed. Anyways here is the filter table.

  4. #24
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    Yeah I created a quick spredsheet to calculate dynamic air based on my VE, then determine density based on temperature and pressure, and manipulate the VE to account for changes in density from the biased and non-biased IAT value. Hopefully you can take a well tuned VE from a non-biased car add the bias coefficients and have a new VE generated based on the biased temp values in the density caluclation. It'll be interesting to see how well it worked. If it does I'll pass it along to see if you get the same results. Might cut down on the VE tuning time after bias corrections. I'll change my filter values too. Thanks!

    -Brad

  5. #25
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    Got a chance to go out tonight. My spreadsheet seemed to work well. After making the suggested bias corrections (per Jason)and enabling the complex cylinder charge model the car started up and was very close. The mid range values seemed not horrid either. I did the RussK startup thingy again and copied that back in. The only complaint I have is the engine hunts a bit when it first cold starts but then settles into a high idle for warmup. It is shown in the log. I also got it up on the interstate and did a couple part throttle pulls. I only tipped in enough to hit enrichment. This is the first time for this setup in boost so I was just checking everything out. Gate opened up right arount the target 8psi value so Im happy. Few more go's with the VE. I'm thinking my pe target of 11.0 is probably a tad rich at only 8 pounds. The 12 degrees of advance seemed pretty sluggish too, but it could be the afr hitting the 10's anyway here it is. The tune here is where I am after adjustments from this evenings runs.

  6. #26
    Advanced Tuner Rinkrat456's Avatar
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    Could you post up the cfg you're using so I can see the logs in the right view?
    Last edited by Rinkrat456; 07-31-2012 at 09:52 PM.
    -Patrick
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  7. #27
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    You may want to open your throttle body set screw a little be more to try and get your IAC counts around 40-80 when full warmed up. You may actually be in the 40-80 range if you let your coolants temps get up to around 210 with the fans off. I would maybe bump up your idle to around 900 rpm with that size of cam, but thats up to you. I think your map sensor offset is off a little bit too you should be around 101 kpa for sea level and you're at 105.

    What heads are you running? Try lowering your idle spark advance in park and drive to around 18-20 degrees of timing in the idle regions. This will help with idle fluctuation quite a bit. Also spark > advance > cat light off > start up correction table should be zero'd out. Another thing that really helps smoothing things out is the over / under speed adaptive idle spark tables. Below is the values I run as yours are over active which is probably compounding your hunting issues.

    Another thing that will help is your open loop fuel adder table. The way you have it setup right now your commanded AFR is not real stable from cell to cell. At 55 kpa you're commanding 1.19 EQ ratio but at 60 kpa its at 1.21. You really need stability between fueling cells as the PCM will interpolate between cells. I included the open loop fuel adder table that I setup on all open loop tunes.

    11:1 commanded AFR and 13 degrees of timing will be really sluggish on 8lbs for sure with your compression ratio. Looks like you were almost down to 10:1 AFR. Not to mention your IAT spark table is pulling 1 degree of timing above 95 degrees. There are some pretty trick ways to add or subtract timing based on Commanded AFR. I will try to explain this so let me know if it makes sense. Look at the Spark > advance > Spark Correction AFR correction base table. If you want to add say 4 degrees of timing at 8lbs of boost you could command 1.25 (11.76 afr) in your power enrichment settings and using your boost enrichment up to say 155kpa. Under the Spark AFR correction table add 4 degrees in the 1.25 column and even vary it by rpm . Now say above 8lbs you could command 1.3 in boost enrichment for anything above 155 kpa and not add any timing in. Of course you can set this table up any which way you please. You could setup your main spark table to have quite bit more timing and have this table pull a desired amount of timing based on boost levels. Multiple ways to skin a cat I have it setup to pull timing and add fuel anything above 10lbs of boost and it works quite nicely. I also add in timing with this table anytime I'm commanding 1.05-1.2 to keep things nice and torque before I hit boost.
    Last edited by Nitroused383; 08-17-2011 at 05:36 AM.
    2000 Camaro SS M6
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  8. #28
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    Stock ls1 castings with oversize valves and port work. I will look at the throttlebody resting position... potentially try adjusting it. The start hunting is fairly new. Not sure what I changed that created it. I'm please with the idle quality after the first 5 seconds or so. It's just the ringing when the engine first fires up 3 or 4 times in a 4 second period that bothers me.

    Once again i'll dive into your suggestions. I'm using all of your hints so far, and not negative issues. I was pleased with the difference when using the complex cylinder charge. I would suggest to anyone going with the speed density mode to keep the function enabled if you have it.

    I don't have the config on the computer, but i'll post it up later today.

    Thanks!

    -Brad

  9. #29
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    If anyone has interest in viewing... this is a dyno plot of my engine with the vortech v9 head unit from before my turbo build. This was before I owned the car and was done by a company in CA.



    -Brad

  10. #30
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    OK. I made a bunch of the suggested changes per this thread. I am slightly confused because I understand what the corrections were doing, and it all makes sense. What I don't understand is why is my timing still really screwed at startup? I don't understand where it comes from. The first log is a cold sstart with the russk config. Second log is a warm start. Both times you can see a period where the timing is messed up then it corrects itself. The first is more pronounces becasue the computer is trying to gain idle control but the second it just translates from low to normal. Any help would be great. I also tried adjusting my map sensor offset to get a more realistic baro reading, but it's not changing?

    -Brad

  11. #31
    Senior Tuner Ben Charles's Avatar
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    Id like to look at your logs, but my scanner shows an error when I attempt to use it (hopefully it is resolved soon, per hptuners)

    I have tried to adjust my offset as well with not luck from 8 to 11, may have to go further?

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  12. #32
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    I tried 6, which I had calculated close to before. I also tried changing the scale to 315 which didn't seem to do anything either. No change to the barometer reading or my manifold pressure sensor. The startup timing is annoying me though.

  13. #33
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    I would say its a combination of things mainly startup flare control spark table and your cranking spark table for your low spark timing. I do not touch the startup flare control spark table to correct idle hunting issues. That is caused from too much RAF at startup and the startup airflow initial table I had you modify. Too much airflow is normally the cause of idle instability, not spark. I would lower both of these tables until your idle hunting issues are solved.

    You will need the latest version of beta to edit your crank spark tables. You should log dynamic airflow to see what spark idle cells you are in at cold start. Looks like your .28 g/cyl @ 800 rpm is set to 18 degrees in your idle table, where as the other idle cells are around 22 degrees.

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...t=start+timing
    2000 Camaro SS M6
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  14. #34
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    OK. Good info Jason. I just want to be super sure with what we are talking about. The idle is perfect 4 seconds after the car starts. For that duration of time the timing doesn't seem to equal the tables. When does the cranking table transition to the main? The second log with the hot start shows the timing once the engine clears the idle request speed at 1-degree! Then it ramps up to around 12, which doesnt make sense to me... then settles in to right around 20. Once it hits that mark it clears up and seems just right. Any suggestions on the map sensor offset issues? I will lower the RAF and initial air tables and give another cold start a whirl. Come to think of it. I think it started fairly normal until I did the Russk thing and messed with the RAF. Maybe i'll try the stock values again tomorrow weather pending.

    Thanks!

    -Brad

  15. #35
    Senior Tuner Ben Charles's Avatar
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    I would like to now more about cranking spark, looks like adding quite a bit may help heavy modded cars??

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  16. #36
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    OK. Emailed for the beta. Completely missed the link to the thread on this issue. Regardless in the mean time (if I have time) I'm going to try and change the RAF values back to stock and see what that gets me. I'm sure the cranking advance values will help, but before I started messing too much it started normal.

    -Brad

  17. #37
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    I think the RAF and initial airflow adder tables will fix the rpm flucuation for the 1st few 2nds. I really have no idea how many seconds it takes to enter the main spark tables. This is probably a hard coded thing from GM that we do not have access too, but if you email [email protected] they will probably be able to answer your question. I haven't had to mess with LS1 cranking tables as it's a brand new feature with beta. I know the E40 (LS2) PCM's have -4 degrees of cranking spark which caused problems with heavily modded engines.

    Whats the part number on your map sensor? I've seen somone on here who had the same issues and he set the Linear to 305 and the offset to -40 or something like that?
    2000 Camaro SS M6
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  18. #38
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    I will get the p/n and search it up. I have a few other I can try as well.

    I do believe the RAF table is screwing me. I looked again at my cold start log, and the iac is resting at almost 300 steps for the idle airflow request. I'm going to continue on with your suggestions on everything, and put my RAF completely back to stock. I don't remember this issue from before I screwed with it so fingers crossed. Is the computer using the same map sensor for baro or is there one in the ecu? It shows like 104.5 or something too.

  19. #39
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    Your baro sensor and the map sensor are one and the same
    2000 Camaro SS M6
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  20. #40
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    OK. I figured the computer just takes a snap shot when the engine isnt running, but have worked on many german products that have a dedicated sensor. I guess I will fudge around with that more too. Hopefully if life permits I can play a little tonight.