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Thread: Idle Tuning How-To & Guide (w/pictures)

  1. #101
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    I forgot to add that you must be in Open Loop Speed Density to do the IAC tune procedure. Disable your MAF and tune your IAC in SD mode. Another technique is once you have your VE table correct (aka Dynamic Airflow), you can use your Dynamic Airflow values to calibrate your MAF. Just make another table that logs Dynamic Airflow and use your MAF frequencies for the Column Axis. No need to multiply these numbers into your MAF table. Just paste them straight over so they match your VE. This is only doable if your VE AFR %'s are CORRECT. All of this starts with a CORRECT VE table.

  2. #102
    Tuner in Training Jim Brown's Avatar
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    Cruise Control with a mind of it's own.

    Hello,
    It's not surprising that this thread is still going.
    Earlier it was mentioned that there are various factory idle schemes not necessarily covered here.
    Well I'm dealing with one of them, and I am hoping that there is a solution out there.
    My engine runs dang near perfect except for one REALLY, REALLY annoying thing.
    On coast-down, in gear, (or revving in park), with an auto trans, my IAC will go to ~172 counts ......,
    ( from 0 counts, which is where I want it to stay ), ( normal hot idle is ~40 counts ),
    ( transition to idle is normally seamless, short, and spot-on, in park or gear,
    unless this ~10 second "cycle" kicks in, and is incomplete ),
    ( it sometimes kicks in randomly with closed throttle deceleration ),
    ( it seems like it may be an anti stall strategy ).
    ....... starting at around 1500 rpm, it will then hold that for around 5 seconds, then drop to
    around 80 counts, for another 4 to 5 seconds, before dropping down to a normal idle.
    This of course, means that I am fighting the engine with the brakes, especially when
    the TCC is still in lock-up, ( which I want, usually ).
    The truck will maintain 55 mph under certain circumstances, foot off the gas.
    I've spent just stupid hours researching this with no joy.
    I've massaged and manipulated every setting until I have no hair left to pull out.
    This is also through many, many timing changes, anywhere timing can be adjusted.
    AFR is a perfect 14.6 on wide-band O2 at all times, excepting warm-up and PE.
    The only thing that seems to have had any effect is setting the "Base Running Airflow" down
    to HALF of the stock numbers (from 40 to 20 lb/hr), this doesn't seem to be causing any
    problems so far, with around 5 warm-up / start-stop cycles, but it's just less pronounced,
    it still does the same ole sh*t, and this is NOT a proper solution.
    I'm getting tired of this.
    Is this a setting that is simply not accessible with HPTuners ???
    I've tried every trick I know, and I have substantial tuning experience, and NOTHING will
    make this completely go away, and I don't even have to fight with a huge cam, (stock).
    PLEASE, tell me I've been stupid and blind, and all I've got to do is change one number.
    There are some strange things you will notice in my tune if you look at it,
    THEY ARE NOT THE CAUSE, this has existed since day one.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Jim Brown; 12-27-2017 at 09:45 AM. Reason: BTW, how do you attach a tune on this forum ?

  3. #103
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    Upload your tune if you want help. Use the attachment feature

  4. #104
    Tuner in Training Jim Brown's Avatar
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    Thanks for replying Wayne,
    It took a while to figure out how to upload, but I finally got it.

    BTW, anyone.....
    I can't seem to find an "Airflow" button/setting for "DFCO Airflow".
    There's "Entry Hold Time", "Entry Ramp Rate", and, "Exit Ramp Rate",
    but where does this "Entry" get generated or referenced ?
    Missing button maybe ?, Hard coded into the operating system ?
    If it's hard coded, I'll be looking for an alternate OS.
    Last edited by Jim Brown; 12-27-2017 at 10:46 AM.
    02 GMC Sonoma, 4.3 V6, 3" exhaust, no cats, modified/completely insulated intake tract/air box, de-screened MAF,
    throttle blade mod, new style fuel injection spider, four- 2-speed cooling fans on custom made shrouds,
    all tubular front suspension w/ Bilstien shocks and stiff springs, dropped 5", rear dropped 4", 18 x 10 wheels, Continental Conti-Sport Contacts,
    1.25" front sway bar, Battery relocated to the bed, 4L60 trans,


  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Brown View Post
    Hello,
    It's not surprising that this thread is still going.
    Earlier it was mentioned that there are various factory idle schemes not necessarily covered here.
    Well I'm dealing with one of them, and I am hoping that there is a solution out there.
    My engine runs dang near perfect except for one REALLY, REALLY annoying thing.
    On coast-down, in gear, (or revving in park), with an auto trans, my IAC will go to ~172 counts ......,
    ( from 0 counts, which is where I want it to stay ), ( normal hot idle is ~40 counts ),
    ( transition to idle is normally seamless, short, and spot-on, in park or gear,
    unless this ~10 second "cycle" kicks in, and is incomplete ),
    ( it sometimes kicks in randomly with closed throttle deceleration ),
    ( it seems like it may be an anti stall strategy ).
    ....... starting at around 1500 rpm, it will then hold that for around 5 seconds, then drop to
    around 80 counts, for another 4 to 5 seconds, before dropping down to a normal idle.
    This of course, means that I am fighting the engine with the brakes, especially when
    the TCC is still in lock-up, ( which I want, usually ).
    The truck will maintain 55 mph under certain circumstances, foot off the gas.
    I've spent just stupid hours researching this with no joy.
    I've massaged and manipulated every setting until I have no hair left to pull out.
    This is also through many, many timing changes, anywhere timing can be adjusted.
    AFR is a perfect 14.6 on wide-band O2 at all times, excepting warm-up and PE.
    The only thing that seems to have had any effect is setting the "Base Running Airflow" down
    to HALF of the stock numbers (from 40 to 20 lb/hr), this doesn't seem to be causing any
    problems so far, with around 5 warm-up / start-stop cycles, but it's just less pronounced,
    it still does the same ole sh*t, and this is NOT a proper solution.
    I'm getting tired of this.
    Is this a setting that is simply not accessible with HPTuners ???
    I've tried every trick I know, and I have substantial tuning experience, and NOTHING will
    make this completely go away, and I don't even have to fight with a huge cam, (stock).
    PLEASE, tell me I've been stupid and blind, and all I've got to do is change one number.
    There are some strange things you will notice in my tune if you look at it,
    THEY ARE NOT THE CAUSE, this has existed since day one.
    I know you mention you have made a lot of timing changes. It appears from my first look at your tune you have nearly doubled the factory settings in the HO table in the problem areas 1200 to 2k. Not saying that this will cause this issue by itself, but it probably isn't helping. I see that you already disabled the throttle cracker and other adders. It may not be the fix, but I would mess around with the VCM controls when it occurs and see what pulling about 10* out would do. I had this problem on my Camaro, albeit, it has a fairly large cam and is a 427 stroker. Timing was the answer for calming it down because it loved to "stick" (and buck) on certain RPM's too. It's worth a try.

    Another thing to test would be logging your dynamic airflow, and your desired airflow together. If the desired is off far enough from dynamic (helps to put them on a graph together), then the engine will constantly adjust your IAC. When it goes all the way down to 0, then it no longer has any control over airflow. You might have to close the blade slightly, or adjust your IAC table. I've had some luck with mine and other gen III's adjusting IAC values. This is necessary anytime you make changes to the physical airflow, like porting, cam swaps, drilling the blade, etc. Stock values are no longer accurate and the computer doesn't know the difference from stock, so the desired a/f will be off.

    One other thing I noticed in your tune is you do not have any overspeed spark corrections. Again, might not be the cause, but might not help either. Without this the computer has to use only a/f to bring the idle down. Coupled with inaccurate IAC values, it may not be able to do this properly. So it might be a few things contributing to your problem. Hope this helps.

  6. #106
    Tuner in Training Jim Brown's Avatar
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    That You for replying.
    I was about to give this thread a bump now that the holidays are over.
    Only thing is, I haven't been doing any tuning over the holidays,
    but the problem seems to have vanished all by it's self over several days of driving.

    You mentioned the timing in the High Octane Spark Table, if you want to look more carefully
    it's really not that unusual, and I would consider it a bit low with a big cam,
    (unless you're running very high compression 13+ to 1),
    but my engine is factory low compression, and I couldn't make it knock if I tried.
    (but I run 93 octane, even though I don't really have a good reason).

    My Timing Maps are very closely based on the factory "Max Torque Timing" table,
    with substantial smoothing, and quite a few, sometimes seemingly radical,
    tweaks, that I've picked up from years of tuning with MegaSquirt.
    The original spark tables were obviously set up with emissions in mind,
    and were extremely conservative.
    With just tuning, I've picked up substantial power and responsiveness.
    That maximum torque peak at 4500 rpm is not a tuning mistake or a way to richen
    the mixture, I run 14.6 everywhere on that table, (with PE enrichment turned off).
    The engine makes over 195-200 hp, with 9.2 compression, and 213,000 miles on it.


    As I noted in my first post, The timing has been put all over the map (pun intended, har-har-har),
    and it has not touched this problem so far.
    The fact that I still have the idle over-speed spark zeroed-out is simply
    an over-site from previous attempts at fixing this problem.
    But that's a moot point, because the engine settles down to idle almost perfectly, every time.
    That is, when the IAC wasn't misbehaving.

    On the other hand, your mention of "desired airflow" vs "dynamic airflow" is very intriguing.
    After getting my Speed Density VE Table perfected, I never gave it a second thought.
    I've never checked the MAF calibration.
    When I plugged the MAF back in after SD tuning, the engine seemed slightly more responsive to the throttle,
    so it never occurred to me that something might be "off" slightly.
    But did you mean to say "Calculated Airflow", I don't have any adjustment for "Desired Airflow".
    I do have "Desired Airflow Max", which I have been clamping down on in fairly large steps,
    and which, is currently less than one fifth of the factory setting, (from 317 down to 60).
    This has definitely taken the "edge" off of the problem, but it did not eliminate it.
    The next time I get enough time to do some tuning, I'll definitely be checking out my MAF calibration
    just to see if there is anything going on there that would cause the "Calculated Airflows" to get wacky
    and possibly try to "automatically compensate" or something like that.
    I just assumed that, if there was no Check Engine Light, that there was not too much discrepancy
    between the MAF and SD calculations.
    Although I got the feeling from somewhere that,
    the "acceptable spread" between the MAF and SD calcs, (before setting a code), is fairly liberal.

    So, since it's not doing it right now, there's not really any need to change anything further in this regard.
    But if it kicks back in, or I find any other possibly related stuff, I will definitely report back.

    Thanks,
    Jim
    02 GMC Sonoma, 4.3 V6, 3" exhaust, no cats, modified/completely insulated intake tract/air box, de-screened MAF,
    throttle blade mod, new style fuel injection spider, four- 2-speed cooling fans on custom made shrouds,
    all tubular front suspension w/ Bilstien shocks and stiff springs, dropped 5", rear dropped 4", 18 x 10 wheels, Continental Conti-Sport Contacts,
    1.25" front sway bar, Battery relocated to the bed, 4L60 trans,


  7. #107
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    Dynamic airflow is calculated from the VE table as you know, but "desired airflow" comes from your IAC vs effective area table. Therefore, when changes are made to the VE table, IAC effective steps might also need to be adjusted. I have a write up a few posts up on this thread on how to set up for it. Just set up for SD, verify your VE table (at least where IAC is affected) and set up the custom PID under user defined maths. The equation is: desired/dynamic*IAC position. This gives you the correction.

    Ron

  8. #108
    Tuner in Training Jim Brown's Avatar
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    Very interesting, and Thank You.
    I'll look into that when I get some time,
    because after 2+ weeks of no problem, it's now back first thing this morning.

    Jim
    02 GMC Sonoma, 4.3 V6, 3" exhaust, no cats, modified/completely insulated intake tract/air box, de-screened MAF,
    throttle blade mod, new style fuel injection spider, four- 2-speed cooling fans on custom made shrouds,
    all tubular front suspension w/ Bilstien shocks and stiff springs, dropped 5", rear dropped 4", 18 x 10 wheels, Continental Conti-Sport Contacts,
    1.25" front sway bar, Battery relocated to the bed, 4L60 trans,


  9. #109
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    I'm sorry to hear that your issue is back. Maybe it heard you typing in a forum and decided to test your skills. Mine seems to do that to me, I swear. Every now and again it just does something random that I have to chase down. But this is probably also because of the extensive mods done to the car and engine. Sometimes things just don't like to work quite right.

    If it were my truck, I would start by getting the counts squared away, and perhaps re-enabling your throttle cracker in a few areas to soften the change between throttle changes. That way your IAC stays open like normal when driving. Your sig says you have a throttle blade mod too. Is it drilled? You might have to close it a little to bring your counts up a little and actual a/f down. I would also investigate the actual motor itself too from a mechanical standpoint.

    For tuning the IAC refer to my post earlier. That's a pretty slick way to get the IAC in line with your actual a/f values. All of the formulas are there, and you can add filters to log while driving. I do it all the time and my entire IAC table is fairly accurate. Another way to do it is use the scanner and force it through all of the steps to gather data.

    Another note that make this perhaps necessary for you is that timing changes vacuum, thereby changing airflow values. The stock IAC values are usually ignored, but in reality the computer is incorrectly accounting for airflow that has been changed. Normally it isn't enough to matter. But with big cams and other mods, small adjustments can mean a lot.

    Hope this helps.

    Ron

  10. #110
    Tuner in Training Jim Brown's Avatar
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    If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it might be situation where the expected "calculated" airflow,
    and what the MAF says, get far enough apart, for a long enough period of time, to trigger a "Stall Saver" type strategy.
    My second best guess is that it's emissions related, whereby the vacuum is too high in a particular rpm range,
    because..... it won't open the IAC above ~1500 rpm, and it returns all the way to closed around ~1000, then opens back up to maintain idle speed.
    It could also be a Calculated Torque issue, (Timing+Mixture+RPM+Airflow-calcs), with the computer being dead sure that a stall is eminent.

    As for your other suggestions, I have recently tried re-enabling Throttle Cracker, and Throttle Follower, and Rolling Idle, to no avail.
    (this is not reflected in the tune file I posted, it was after that)
    And, I'm actually running negative timing and a slightly rich mixture on decel, which is the only time this occurs.
    The Throttle Blade Mod, if you aren't familiar with it, is only applicable to certain Vortec engines, (I forget the year ranges),
    both V6 and V8 engines have a huge appendage riveted to the throttle blade.
    It's purposes are 1 of 2 things, or both, 1) It makes the Throttle more progressive, (it's actually too big for a stock V6 engine),
    and/or, 2) It helps to redistribute and mix exhaust gases from the EGR valve, which comes out of a strange looking
    bent metal tube, inside the intake manifold plenum, at the very front of the manifold.
    What's really strange, is that 2002+3 V6 didn't come with an EGR valve, or even a place to mount one,
    but they still installed the tube anyway, but it's connected to an empty chamber in the aluminum casting.
    Anyway, this "appendage" was riveted on to the throttle blade, creating a HUGE restriction to airflow, mostly for the first 50% of opening.
    After drilling the rivets and removing the flap, I installed new rivets, with proper aluminum backing washers, in the holes.
    There is no chance of leakage, and zero effect on closing.
    BTW, I like the idea of forcing the IAC step by step and writing down the numbers, just as a verification, under static conditions.

    Jim
    02 GMC Sonoma, 4.3 V6, 3" exhaust, no cats, modified/completely insulated intake tract/air box, de-screened MAF,
    throttle blade mod, new style fuel injection spider, four- 2-speed cooling fans on custom made shrouds,
    all tubular front suspension w/ Bilstien shocks and stiff springs, dropped 5", rear dropped 4", 18 x 10 wheels, Continental Conti-Sport Contacts,
    1.25" front sway bar, Battery relocated to the bed, 4L60 trans,


  11. #111
    Tuner in Training Jim Brown's Avatar
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    WOO-HOO, I found the problem. NO MORE Random "Cruise Control".
    In a place that you would never have guessed.
    Engine Torque Management (Engine), of all things.

    Engine---> Torque Management---> Engine,
    has a special section dedicated to the AC Compressor called "AC Torque".
    There are ~15 different Settings / Maps, all of which I zeroed-out.
    Everything is perfect now.

    This section seems to be dedicated to making it virtually
    impossible to tell when the AC Compressor cycles on and off,
    rather than providing a truly important function, like preventing parts breakage, or smoothing shifts.
    Personally, I don't mind feeling the AC Compressor cycling.

    IT ALSO COMMANDS THE IAC (Idle-Air-Control Stepper Motor),
    (not "just" ignition advance and retard as I had previously assumed).
    I would also assume that ETC would definitely be controlled by Torque Management,
    but it never dawned on me that Torque Management could have
    anything to do with the operation of the IAC Motor.

    My, "mostly-back-to-factory" settings, under "Engine--->Idle", quickly took up the slack,
    and relearned how to handle the AC cycling after about 10 minutes of driving in town.
    Now I have flawless, quick, smooth, and precise control with zero idle fluctuation.
    And No More Random "Cruise-Control" BS.
    02 GMC Sonoma, 4.3 V6, 3" exhaust, no cats, modified/completely insulated intake tract/air box, de-screened MAF,
    throttle blade mod, new style fuel injection spider, four- 2-speed cooling fans on custom made shrouds,
    all tubular front suspension w/ Bilstien shocks and stiff springs, dropped 5", rear dropped 4", 18 x 10 wheels, Continental Conti-Sport Contacts,
    1.25" front sway bar, Battery relocated to the bed, 4L60 trans,


  12. #112
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    Doing a hybrid OL idle/closed loop run it says to set the 02 error left to right but no numbers. Just a picture that cannot be viewed. Anyone know these numbers?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #113
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwx...ew?usp=sharing

    Quote Originally Posted by anniversaryss View Post
    Doing a hybrid OL idle/closed loop run it says to set the 02 error left to right but no numbers. Just a picture that cannot be viewed. Anyone know these numbers?
    rdrfabrication@gmail.com
    2016 GMC 3500 Denali Diesel
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

    Ecotec help can be found here:
    LNF-http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...357-LNF-Guides
    LSJ-http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...965-LSJ-Guides

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post
    My man.. thank you

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by anniversaryss View Post
    Doing a hybrid OL idle/closed loop run it says to set the 02 error left to right but no numbers. Just a picture that cannot be viewed. Anyone know these numbers?
    so what does this do to make the OL idle work?

    also, instead of changing the VE table by .9 to lean out the idle, couldn't you change the PE EQ table to command the 16.3 between 0-1200 rpm?
    Last edited by gmtech825; 07-14-2018 at 12:14 PM.

  16. #116
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    Hi everyone, really cool thread, i will be trying to use it to set my idle up and running.

    I know this is an hptuner forum and thread, i`ll be using tunercat, and ScanXL for logging, so the cfg config file posted here can`t be used. Has amyone got a ScanXL cfg?
    As well i had challange finding the right tables to make changes to in tunercan, becouse they are named differently, have made instraction file for my self tostart making changes in my tune, may be someone here is familier with tunercat and can have a look at my instraction file.I will be working with 0411 Road Runner Emulator repined pcm on a L31 small block 5.7 ex TBI converted in to Vortec heads and manifold from a stock 1998 tahoe, and a comp cam 08-467-8, with 58* of overlap, AC DELCO 217-3029 89060440 spider injectors NO EGR, NO VATS, NO CAT`s, NO REAR O2`s. The Engine starts only when i apply the accelerator pedal, by about 15-20%, runs reach, smells, does not have cold start and does not hold idle if i let go the pedal.
    I have a thread on gearhead efi about my truck: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...using-TunerCat

    I`m new to tuning ECM/PCM, so any advice or guide to follow would relly help, a specialy on tunercat OBD2 tuning.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Aksl; 02-07-2019 at 05:57 PM.

  17. #117
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    Ok, i have a question to the auther of the thread:

    In the part where you say that we have to: "Make sure that your Idle Spark Advance table (both “In Drive” and “In Park”) match your High and Low Octane Table for all columns up to 1200rpm (HPT > Engine > Spark Control > Spark Advance > Idle Spark Advance (in Park, in Gear), Hi and Lo Octane). Blend the timing numbers into the 1600rpm+ columns so there are no huge numerical transitions."

    Since before, in part where you say we have to "add 6º of idle timing 1200 rpm and under and 0.08 – 0.28 g/cyl inclusive (HPT > Engine > Spark Control > Spark Advance > Idle Spark Advance (in Park)." But on the pictere you show the Main Spark vs. Air Mass vs RPM Open Throttle, low octane table."

    If i`m correct, then why not just add 6* to all of those tables?

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aksl View Post
    Ok, i have a question to the auther of the thread:

    In the part where you say that we have to: "Make sure that your Idle Spark Advance table (both “In Drive” and “In Park”) match your High and Low Octane Table for all columns up to 1200rpm (HPT > Engine > Spark Control > Spark Advance > Idle Spark Advance (in Park, in Gear), Hi and Lo Octane). Blend the timing numbers into the 1600rpm+ columns so there are no huge numerical transitions."

    Since before, in part where you say we have to "add 6º of idle timing 1200 rpm and under and 0.08 – 0.28 g/cyl inclusive (HPT > Engine > Spark Control > Spark Advance > Idle Spark Advance (in Park)." But on the pictere you show the Main Spark vs. Air Mass vs RPM Open Throttle, low octane table."

    If i`m correct, then why not just add 6* to all of those tables?
    I believe the idea is to keep all those tables very close to the same so there are no big spark transitions when going from park to gear ETC. I believe from the factory they vary a "decent" amount from one another. The guide suggests editing the Hi Octane table up "X" number of degrees (based on overlap of the new cam) then taking that data and pasting it into the other tables.

    Watch when doing this the idle tables don't have the same column resolution as the main spark tables. You'll have to copy paste every other (at least in my OS).

    Hope this helps some.
    Chris

  19. #119
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    As an example my stock tune file shows Hi Octane table values for .24g

    400, 600, 800, 1200, 1600
    18, 18, 23, 28, 30

    In Park Idle table at the same .24g looks like this:
    0, 400, 800, 1200, 1600
    18, 18, 18, 20, 28

    So as you can see the 1200 RPM cell is quite different between the two. The other not as much but still some. The In Drive table is different than these too as well.

    Chris
    Last edited by ccm399; 02-12-2019 at 03:56 PM.

  20. #120
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    thanks to you for making this thread....and to everyone else whom keeps it going, great info