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Thread: 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  1. #21
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    I want to verify that the information you gave me is good for the stock 3800 engine. I just found out that the PCM pinouts are different for different engines, but none of that material tells which engine is in the car so modified, and I never mentioned which engine I have. I have two questions:

    1. What engine was this information based on? Is it good for the 3800 engine?

    2. Is unplugging the PCM to insert the pin going to affect the anti-theft feature on my stereo? The reactivation codes were not in the paperwork when I got the car used. The former owner bought it at an estate auction, and they were missing then, so there is no way to reacquire them from the original owner.

    Quote Originally Posted by passingpower View Post
    I’ve got three years of electronics engineering myself. When I said “Can’t advise you as to what the momentary switch type is.” What I meant to say is I can’t tell you or your mechanic which software setting (0,1,2…) to use to tell the PCM what type of switch is installed. I’m using a SPDT and a software setting of “1”. Didn’t need to change anything as that’s stock on my Prix. Being you’re using a DPDT, the software setting will have to be 1 if it’s not already.
    Actually, I had thought it might be a semantics issue (different language used in different regions). I came across this many times in my former engineering position (I am now a college instructor).

    Slick idea with the gear status light! Check out this shift indicator. http://www.backinblackgp.com/SVII.htm
    I stumbled across that years ago. Had to Google for that link. When I did, guess what I found! http://www.backinblackgp.com/2ndGearStart.htm
    That display looks a little complicated for my purposes. And I already have the wiring diagram for that relay shift mod, but rejected it, as it would set trouble codes every time it was used (I even designed a way to do it with only one relay before I discarded it).

    If you really want to econo-mod your throttle technique, monitor the Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) status. Keep it locked as much as you can. You could also monitor the purple wire from your pre-cat O2 sensor using an LM317 to a dashboard light. That line is a 0-1volt feedback signal. (I’m sure you’ve already researched this.) Set the threshold for 0.7v. For best economy, use a light enough throttle to keep that one flashing. If it’s on steady, you’re commanding Power Enrichment in open loop. The longer you stay in that mode, the richer you’ll be burning.
    Actually, the tach will help me there. I just wanted to know which tach changes were shifts and which were TCC changes, and how far it downshifted on a hill (and of course, to verify that SGS was working).
    Last edited by Troubleshooter; 11-25-2011 at 05:56 PM.
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  2. #22
    Advanced Tuner passingpower's Avatar
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    Gimme a day or so to look up the 2k2 Bonnie pinouts from the factory service DVD.
    All this info comes from the 3800 even the Camaro stuff. The Bonnie and Prix both use the 4T65E transmission. You won't need to unplug the PCM to add the wire. In the unlikely event you do lose power to the head unit and activate the security, I can hook u up with an unlocking proceedure.
    Last edited by passingpower; 12-02-2011 at 06:43 PM.
    Check before you consider tuning;
    Is the MIL on? ANY leaks-vacuum, fluid or exhaust? Clogged filters? Old O2 or dirty MAF sensors? Dirty injectors, PCV or IAC passage? Correct the condition. Change the plugs & oil while you're at it. They need it anyway. Particular system giving you fits? Visually examine the related wiring first.

  3. #23
    Advanced Tuner passingpower's Avatar
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    Here it is.
    For reference compare the 98 and 01 Grand Prix. See how pin 21 goes from Preformance shift to not used? Well, It still works if you enable it in Tiny Tuner.
    You won't have to remove the connector. When I got my old ZZP tune, the gave me a wire with a crimped connector along with instructions that essentially said this: remove or split open the orange rubber plug on the unused pin 21 and push the connector in until you feel a 'click'. I did and it worked. (ZZP enabled the function using DHP)
    Check before you consider tuning;
    Is the MIL on? ANY leaks-vacuum, fluid or exhaust? Clogged filters? Old O2 or dirty MAF sensors? Dirty injectors, PCV or IAC passage? Correct the condition. Change the plugs & oil while you're at it. They need it anyway. Particular system giving you fits? Visually examine the related wiring first.

  4. #24
    Advanced Tuner Phantom's Avatar
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    If you are using TinyTuner to enable performance shift see my post on the last page for doing a 2nd gear start.

    I have attached the tune for 2nd gear start on my GP for reference.

    02 VW Golf

    98 Bonneville SSE
    03 Grandprix GT
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  5. #25
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    Thank you all so much. I am going to attempt this during the semester break.

    One more question: Is it easier or better to connect to the shift solenoid wires at the transmission end or at the PCM?
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  6. #26
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    too bad there isn't anyone around/near you.
    that could tune it "in" for you.
    The Regal has been laid to rest..... rust
    Now have an 06 Lucerne with the 3.8 and wishing HPT would cover that car
    Loved my 2001 Buick Regal GS.
    With more than 334,000K, 3.4 & 3.6 pulley, Change stats and pulleys with the seasons, Upgraded grounds & power wire, Volt booster, Caspers timing commander(AKA happy knob), Spectra intake-fender wall, PLog, 3" DP & 2.5 exhaust, HPTunner 12" Impala duel piston front brakes, New trans,GMPP suspension... yada, yada...

  7. #27
    Advanced Tuner passingpower's Avatar
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    Geo is right. With almost no extra effort, most guys on here could get you an extra 3-4 mpg or a quarter to half second off ur ET with just a few refinements to ur firmware.
    Shouldn't make any diff where you tap in. Just be sure you have comfortable enough access to spend enough time sealing the splices properly.
    Check before you consider tuning;
    Is the MIL on? ANY leaks-vacuum, fluid or exhaust? Clogged filters? Old O2 or dirty MAF sensors? Dirty injectors, PCV or IAC passage? Correct the condition. Change the plugs & oil while you're at it. They need it anyway. Particular system giving you fits? Visually examine the related wiring first.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by passingpower View Post
    Geo is right. With almost no extra effort, most guys on here could get you an extra 3-4 mpg or a quarter to half second off ur ET with just a few refinements to ur firmware.
    Shouldn't make any diff where you tap in. Just be sure you have comfortable enough access to spend enough time sealing the splices properly.
    Actually, I was asking about the access itself. I want all of the information in advance, so a minimum of actual time is needed under the hood.

    Is it better to use solder, the clamp-on splices, or the crimps?

    What is the best method for sealing the splices? I have seen several methods available.

    I have much experience in electronics, but not so much in environmental conditions under the hood and how they affect these methods.
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoJB View Post
    too bad there isn't anyone around/near you.
    that could tune it "in" for you.
    The guy I am working with is a professional tuner.

    I am concerned about longevity as well as mpg.
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  10. #30
    Advanced Tuner passingpower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troubleshooter View Post
    Is it better to use solder, the clamp-on splices, or the crimps?
    Nothing is better than solder and rosin flux and nothing is worse than clamp-on splices. Use the liquid flux don't just rely on the core. The liquid is good 'cause it seeps down the wire under the insulation a ways and helps to seal the connection when it cools. (again, no acid flux!) Only cut the insulation of the original wire, pull the insulation aside and wrap the splice wire around the conductor, add a drop of flux, heat the work and solder. (I'm sure you know how to solder already. That was for those who don't.) After that, cover the connection with somthing like under water or plumber's adhesive (not pipe dope) DON'T use RTV! or anything else that smells like vinegar. Only use goop that smells like model airplane glue. There are other commercial products that use ditectric grease and a snap-on protector and they make an excellant water proof seal. The downside is they take up a fair ammount of space-bad close to the PCM, and some need longer runs of wire-can't find wire to spare anywhere on a car! I also have some doubts about how well delectric grease would hold up in the temperatures under the hood.
    Last edited by passingpower; 12-13-2011 at 08:31 AM.
    Check before you consider tuning;
    Is the MIL on? ANY leaks-vacuum, fluid or exhaust? Clogged filters? Old O2 or dirty MAF sensors? Dirty injectors, PCV or IAC passage? Correct the condition. Change the plugs & oil while you're at it. They need it anyway. Particular system giving you fits? Visually examine the related wiring first.

  11. #31
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    Got it. Old style tap splice, liquid rosin flux, liquid tape. I already have both.
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  12. #32
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    Here is the solution no cutting wires or adding them just load the file and copy over your tune save then burn. Start the car place shifter in 2nd and drive in second till you manually shift or hit 88mph. Why 88mph that was the default speed to shift from 2nd to 3rd with the shifter in 2nd i did not change this in your tune but I usually lower it to 40ish.

    I assume that the OSID is the same that you are using let me know how it works.

    02 VW Golf

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    03 Grandprix GT
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  13. #33
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    Three new questions:

    1. Does the above post's info look correct to the rest of you? Some of you said there were not separate tables for different shift lever positions.

    2. What happens if shift lever is put in 1 while second gear start (using the performance table method) is switched on?

    3. Are the diagrams here of the front of the socket (back of the cable plug), or the front of the plug (back of the socket)

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/attach...9&d=1322860884
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  14. #34
    Advanced Tuner Phantom's Avatar
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    1. There are tables for the shift lever it is just not mapped in HPT.

    2. I do not think that peformance shift will effect the shift properties it the selector is in 1st I'm not 100% on that since I do not see any tables effecting performance shift vs selector. With that said placing the shifter in 1st will force 1st gear the values for the table are as follows.
    Shift selector in LOW (1st gear)
    1-2: 48mph
    2-1: 35mph
    2-3: 88mph
    3-2: 86mph

    You may have missed my original post on the first page http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showpo...3&postcount=19 but I'm pretty sure that adding a 2nd gear switch will not work on your car or at least that is what I was told by backinblack.

    02 VW Golf

    98 Bonneville SSE
    03 Grandprix GT
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  15. #35
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    Oh Great! I was planning to have this done tomorrow, and now someone says it won't work. I already bought all of the parts and built some of the circuitry. Worse, I now have two groups of people, each with a method, and saying the other group's method won't work.

    To Phantom: Why can't I add a performance switch circuit to my Bonneville's 3800 engine, and tune it for second gear start instead of performance? That's what the other plan is.

    What tuner are the binary files for? I read that different tuners used different binary file formats.

    To midwboss: Is Phantom right that there are different tables for each shift lever position?

    To passingpower: Is Phantom right? Are there separate tables for each shift lever position? And what would happen if I left it in second gear start (using the performance switch circuit) and moved the shift lever to 3, 2, or 1? Does the performance table work in Drive, but not the other ranges? Or would it affect the other ranges? What happens if the SGS table is in force and the lever is moved to 1?
    Last edited by Troubleshooter; 01-05-2012 at 12:31 AM.
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  16. #36
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    Must everything go wrong at once? The guy who was going to do the tune for me sold his tuner. Now I have nobody in my area to do the job.
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  17. #37
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    Q. Are the diagrams here of the front of the socket (back of the cable plug), or the front of the plug (back of the socket)

    A. Shouldn't matter. Just stay on the clear connector. The pin numbers are molded into the plastic and iirc, cast into the aluminum case too.

    As with Phantom, I can't be 100% how Perf/SGS will affect low-1. The intent is to shift into "D" and the SGS enable signal will force the 2nd gear clutch to engage at 0 mph. If you want to experiment with shifting, feel free. You won't be able to break anything at the torque and speeds we're discussing. Binary files are the ASE spec. and def work with HPT and TinyTuner as well as TunerCats and iirc EFILive. I'd be amazed if most other products wouldn't recognize .bin. As for "different" formats, They're developed by encrypting a standard .bin in a proprietary manner. There may well be different tables as Phantom states. There are a number of tables revealed in TT that I haven't found explanations for. That being the case, I'm in no way prepared to say Phantom is wrong. I can say that adding a dashboard switch grounding pin 21 WILL work(with the appropriate logic field set to 1). And you'll have the benefit of knowing that clutch 2 is locked when you throw it. What BackInBlack is referring to is a whole interceptor circuit between the PCM and transmission and I completely believe Phantom when he says that won't work. If you're asking for my assessment of the three methods, I'd have to say that adding a pin, wire, switch, and changing one firmware logic state along with zeroing a single row of values is the simplest and least intrusive way to accomplish Second Gear Start on an 02 Bonnie. Would Phantom's method work? It might.

    Check Craigslist for Performance shops and tuners in your area. BTW, do you know what product your mechanic was using?
    Last edited by passingpower; 01-08-2012 at 12:14 AM.
    Check before you consider tuning;
    Is the MIL on? ANY leaks-vacuum, fluid or exhaust? Clogged filters? Old O2 or dirty MAF sensors? Dirty injectors, PCV or IAC passage? Correct the condition. Change the plugs & oil while you're at it. They need it anyway. Particular system giving you fits? Visually examine the related wiring first.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by passingpower View Post
    Q. Are the diagrams here of the front of the socket (back of the cable plug), or the front of the plug (back of the socket)

    A. Shouldn't matter. Just stay on the clear connector. The pin numbers are molded into the plastic and iirc, cast into the aluminum case too.
    I was planning to do it without disconnecting the connector as discussed earlier. The numbers would be on the hidden faces because the connector is still together..

    As with Phantom, I can't be 100% how Perf/SGS will affect low-1. The intent is to shift into "D" and the SGS enable signal will force the 2nd gear clutch to engage at 0 mph. If you want to experiment with shifting, feel free. You won't be able to break anything at the torque and speeds we're discussing.
    I have since found this out. The instructions to another tuner (dhp) show tables for the following:

    (D - normal) 1->2, 2->1, 2->3, 3->2, 3->4, 4->3
    (3 & 2 - normal) 1->2, 2->1, 2->3, 3->2
    (D - performance) 1->2, 2->1, 2->3, 3->2, 3->4, 4->3
    (3 & 2 - performance) 1->2, 2->1, 2->3, 3->2

    3 & 2 is for the 3 and 2 shift lever positions. There is no table for the 1 position.

    There were other tables for normal detent activation, performance detent activation, cruise control, and hot transmission temperature.

    HPT probably just affects the Drive table, or affects the Drive and 3 & 2 tables equally.

    Binary files are the ASE spec. and def work with HPT and TinyTuner as well as TunerCats and iirc EFILive. I'd be amazed if most other products wouldn't recognize .bin. As for "different" formats, They're developed by encrypting a standard .bin in a proprietary manner. There may well be different tables as Phantom states. There are a number of tables revealed in TT that I haven't found explanations for. That being the case, I'm in no way prepared to say Phantom is wrong. I can say that adding a dashboard switch grounding pin 21 WILL work(with the appropriate logic field set to 1). And you'll have the benefit of knowing that clutch 2 is locked when you throw it.
    I keep learning more about this. But I am not going to be able to do anything in time for the upcoming snow. I read that you can send a .bin file to the PCM with HPT, but that you can't make a .bin file from the PCM with HPT. Is this true?

    I read that TinyTuner operates on the .bin file, but that it can't either read the PCM or upload to it. So how is it used?

    What BackInBlack is referring to is a whole interceptor circuit between the PCM and transmission and I completely believe Phantom when he says that won't work.
    Oh! That! I already deduced that. It would throw the PCM into tranny limp mode.

    If you're asking for my assessment of the three methods, I'd have to say that adding a pin, wire, switch, and changing one firmware logic state along with zeroing a single row of values is the simplest and least intrusive way to accomplish Second Gear Start on an 02 Bonnie. Would Phantom's method work? It might.
    Since I already built the switch panel, I am going to stick with that.

    [QUOTE}Check Craigslist for Performance shops and tuners in your area. BTW, do you know what product your mechanic was using?[/QUOTE]

    He had the dhp. He now has a small GM device that can do nothing but download updates from GM and install them, and a similar one for Ford.

    I hear that the dhp is discontinued. Is that right?
    Last edited by Troubleshooter; 01-10-2012 at 09:45 PM.
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE

  19. #39
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    I installed my PerfShift pin & wire w/o unplugging. Don't worry, the numbers are on the back and are pretty easy to see.

    From what I've seen, HPT is only missing the 'cruise' and 'city' tables. I should note that what is called a "table" in HPT is actually the six 1>2 2>3 3>4 4<3 3<2 2<1 tables found in DHP and TT, combined as to clearly show their interrelation. That's a truly invaluable feature in HPT. Refer to post #14-Stock01F-bodyNorm-Perf.JPG.

    Q. I read that you can send a .bin file to the PCM with HPT, but that you can't make a .bin file from the PCM with HPT. Is this true?
    A. Yup. every word.

    Q. So how is it used?

    A. TT is an editor only. It's the Phoenix that rose from the DHP ashes. While it accesses and modifies more tables than either HPT or DHP alone, it cannot interface with a PCM or ECU. Back in the day the reader/writer was separate from the editor of HPT too.

    Support for DHP is gone and I won't use this board to hook anyone up with a competitor's community. The best I can do in that regard is to say Google is your friend.

    Keep us informed.
    Check before you consider tuning;
    Is the MIL on? ANY leaks-vacuum, fluid or exhaust? Clogged filters? Old O2 or dirty MAF sensors? Dirty injectors, PCV or IAC passage? Correct the condition. Change the plugs & oil while you're at it. They need it anyway. Particular system giving you fits? Visually examine the related wiring first.

  20. #40
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    We had our first real ice storm. I am glad it happened on Friday night. I tested the car as it is this morning. It spun out on the 14 degree slope, and never made it to the concrete lip I was concerned about. I tried all of the different control positions.

    I don't even want to try it on the roads (which have not been treated yet).

    Under the same conditions, the old car would have made it out with no trouble in the 2 position. I had done it many times.
    Troubleshooter. Stock 2002 Pontiac Bonneville SLE