Injector Dynamics prices are going up

[zl1killer]

bosch input on deadtime / offset, see attached pdf files.

[DSteck]

Your point? Bosch (an OEM) is capable of developing that information, and know how to do it. ID is the only non-OEM (short of Greg Banish) with the equipment and know-how to do it as well. I don't think Greg is capable of doing it on a production level quantity though.

By the way, that offset table you posted on LS1tech for FIC's injectors... Wanna know something funny? It's a crude interpolation of factory data for a ZR1. Open a ZR1 or new CTS-V file and look. I'll bet the short pulse adder table is dead nuts the same, too (assuming the data sheet you're looking at has a table with the same break points as the ZR1/CTS-V, which it most likely would).

[edcmat-l1]

What's hilarious is FIC uses to always sing the song about how only the orifice plate or tip is modified, and since no internals are changed, the injector data doesn't change.

This true. While I'd rather not get into the injector pissing contest, I know this to be fact. And I find it ironic that just a few short years ago their injectors "only need the flow rate changed" and now they supply complete injector data. Things that make ya go "hmmmmm"........

[DSteck]

I bet I can piss straight up in the air higher than you can!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7jzdLCpfPc

[zl1killer]

Your point? Bosch (an OEM) is capable of developing that information, and know how to do it. ID is the only non-OEM (short of Greg Banish) with the equipment and know-how to do it as well. I don't think Greg is capable of doing it on a production level quantity though.

I don't know Greg, but have heard of him and I'm willing to bet that if he put himself to it he would fully be capable of doing it on a production level quantity.

I will definitely look into the ZR1/CTS-V file and interpolating the data to see what I come up with and compare.

at this point I don't care to continue the match, I got in the middle of a long, old dispute between two vendors (maybe more) and I honestly don't know who did what where and when with regards to developing an apparatus to decode injector performance and characteristics and then presented data, I really don't care about the history part, as I can't defend either side.

The point is now we are here and its 2012, electronics and computers are more advanced and people are smarter, we learn and adapt. OEMs that develop injectors are starting to provide data, aftermarket people are providing data, so I don't know exactly how to prove that vendor A and vendor B can provide injector data nor if it is a copy or interpolation of other data from other injectors (besides trying to do an interpolation myself).

If people can learn and there exists several machines that can develop all the data for tuning injectors...eventually there are going to be more and more doing so.

[DSteck]

It's about ethics. Shady business needs to be called out in it.

Hell, just look at the proof I posted in the other thread about files handed out that we're originated by Paul Yaw.



There's pharmacists, and there's tonic vendors.

[zl1killer]

completely understood.

if both vendors have devices to develop injector data at this time, without showing the details of flow meters, computers/ecus/pcms, wiring, data compiling this argument could go on forever with regards to continual copying/interpolating/faking actual injector operating data.

[DSteck]

...

The origin of the data has been explicitly pointed out. It is cut and dry on who developed it. You seem extremely quick to sing the praises of FIC but reluctant to admit to what's actually going on. You know damn well ID made the data, but you won't say it.

[zl1killer]

My last PM to you was this:

I completely agree that it is unethical and wrong in business and in general to do such a thing. The only thing I know is I bought ID725s and got the HPTuners excel sheet FROM ID, direct from Paul via email, and his website when it became updated and it was to the best of my knowledge labeled, copyrighted, etc as IDs.
I never knew or saw anything else in injector data.

so I don't understand your last post.
what I know is I purchased ID725s and when I did I got the excel sheet directly from them and their website, meaning ID. The excel sheet had ID all over it with the nice copyright text. I would take that as being IDs... I don't know anything else on the matter. Like I said, I don't care about the history, all I care about now is seeing that no one is copying any more data, nor providing "filler" data

[DSteck]

I just wanted you to publicly say it instead of in private.

[eficalibrator]

Guys, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I don't sell injectors. I also don't sell widebands, dynos, MAFs, or tuning software; but I have opinions on those too. What I am is a guy with some knowledge and experience who is willing to share those with people who honestly want to learn something. As such, I will gladly show people what I have seen work successfully before along with what does NOT work correctly.

I tend to not suffer fools well. I get easily disgusted by people who claim to know something, yet have no technical background or basic understanding of the physics behind their own product. The bar is continuously being raised in the aftermarket tuning world, but there are still people desperately clutching to their old (and flat out wrong) assertions about how some things work. Step one is gaining a basic understanding of how the system works. If you sell a product, I would expect that you know how your own product works. If I'm shopping for injectors, it seems the only people I've been able to have the intelligent conversation about them with all work for Bosch, Continental/Siemens, or Injector Dynamics. If you show your ignorance about your product, or worse yet try to lie to me about it, I'm just not going to buy from you. Chances are also good that I might mention it in passing as I talk to other people looking for similar products. I have a hard time rewarding bad behavior with my hard earned money.

[zl1killer]

Interesting last post.

Bosch - injector manufacturer
Continental/Siemens - injector manufacturer

Injector dynamics - aftermarket business modifying already made injectors

I could start bringing up motorsports teams and etc that have flow benches and said equipment that only ID has or knows how to make to test injectors, but this isn't really about that.

the only thing this is about is someone or multiple people took data off of IDs website, un-badged it and spread it.

I think by now many shops have the ability to do such testing, now in relation to the amount of shops that exist, sure, I bet only a handful do. It is out there, you just have to look to find it.

[DSteck]

You really don't want to see FIC crash and burn, do you?

[zl1killer]

i'm actually going to go down there on a Friday and check it out, its not that far for me.
after several hours of google, i have found several shops that offer the dynamic matching & etc as also claimed by ID & FIC. They aren't as advertised as some shops, but they have their market with motorsports.

[eficalibrator]

I got a chance to fully characterize a set of redrilled injectors recently.

VERY interesting results. Some people are not going to like what they see, but it's just data and not an opinion. I'll put the writeup together very soon...