New to tuning? Step inside

[JimMueller]

Oz & Foff: So you're setting the AFR to a static AFR from PE entry all the way to peak torque, and set the AFR from that point to almost the rev limiter. How much is a final bit? If my rev limiter is 7000, can I just set the 6800 PE value slightly richer, or is that not low enough?

405HP_Z06:

Step 2e: Instead of 'trying' not to enter PE, I believe there's a method to outright prevent entering PE for this purpose.

Step 2f: Cliff's Notes version - positive LTFT's indicate fuel is being added because you are lean. You need to richen this cell by increasing the VE value by the amount of the LTFT value. Just the opposite for negative LTFT's.

If LTFT = (4), VE cell value is 67, result would be (67)+(4)=71 - increasing the VE, which is adding fuel.

If the LTFT was (-4), the result would be (67)+(-4)=63, decreasing VE and thus reducing fuel.

Step 3: How does a wideband sensor help you with your LTFT's? IF you have access to a wideband, why not use the wideband method to tune the fueling?

Step 3A: Everything I've read indicates it takes 50 minutes for LTFT values to stabilize, assuming you can hit all your typical cells. If you want to drive 120MPH for those first 100 miles, you should have it covered

Step 4. This shows how to eliminate knock retard. I'm still looking for a method to optimize timing - how to extract max performance in each cell. I don't like assuming that max timing before KR means optimum power. I have a sample timing chart given to me by Wait4me, and I might try it out once SD is finished. It gained me 5-8twtq across the board on my LS1-Edit tune, but he's had better luck with other vehicles. Perhaps I'll see that better luck once my VE is done.

[ozorowsky]

[glow=red,2,300]Oz & Foff: So you're setting the AFR to a static AFR from PE entry all the way to peak torque, and set the AFR from that point to almost the rev limiter. How much is a final bit? If my rev limiter is 7000, can I just set the 6800 PE value slightly richer, or is that not low enough? [/glow]

No. Here is how I set my AFR. Let's say I have these rpm's on a wideband:

4800-12.6
5000-13.3
5600-13.1
6000-12.9
6400-13.0 This is my rev limiter

What I am doing is taking these numbers, then look at my apark advance tables. Let's say it reads:

4800-1.213
5000-1.118
5600-1.192
6000-1.382
6400-1.231

Now, I just pulled these numbers out of air, so don't look at them too hard. Basically in my camaro I want a 13.0 afr for max hp and 12.8 for max tq. So what I would do is look where my torque is peaking on a dyno and richen from like 2400 to that point up to max tq and then start leaning it out to max hp then richen up a little bit to like 12.9 and set that as my rev limit.

[glow=red,2,300]405HP_Z06:

Step 2e: Instead of 'trying' not to enter PE, I believe there's a method to outright prevent entering PE for this purpose. [/glow]

I personally don't see an advantage to this, just stay very limited to how much you go WOT. Try not to at all.


[glow=red,2,300]Step 2f: Cliff's Notes version - positive LTFT's indicate fuel is being added because you are lean. You need to richen this cell by increasing the VE value by the amount of the LTFT value. Just the opposite for negative LTFT's.

If LTFT = (4), VE cell value is 67, result would be (67)+(4)=71 - increasing the VE, which is adding fuel.

If the LTFT was (-4), the result would be (67)+(-4)=63, decreasing VE and thus reducing fuel. [/glow]

I will edit this now. Thank you.


[glow=red,2,300]Step 3: How does a wideband sensor help you with your LTFT's? IF you have access to a wideband, why not use the wideband method to tune the fueling? [/glow]

As far as I know it doesn't help.


[glow=red,2,300]Step 4. This shows how to eliminate knock retard. I'm still looking for a method to optimize timing - how to extract max performance in each cell. I don't like assuming that max timing before KR means optimum power. I have a sample timing chart given to me by Wait4me, and I might try it out once SD is finished. It gained me 5-8twtq across the board on my LS1-Edit tune, but he's had better luck with other vehicles. Perhaps I'll see that better luck once my VE is done. [/glow]

Only advice I can give here is to set your WOT timing which is from like 3000rpm at .80 to your rev limit to approx. 28 degrees. Do a scan for knock, and decrease timing from necessary cells. Now you should have optimum timing. Do another scan to make sure no more Knock.

[98A4LS1]

The explanation for LTFT Tuning is for running your car with the MAF always unplugged, is this correct?

[ozorowsky]

98: No, if you want to run a MAF just plug it back in after you follow those steps for the ltft tuning.

[98A4LS1]

Thanks Oz! I ordered HPTuners this morning. Can hardly wait to get started! I need to find formulas, etc to see how table values are derived.

[JimMueller]

[glow=red,2,300]
Now, I just pulled these numbers out of air, so don't look at them too hard. Basically in my camaro I want a 13.0 afr for max hp and 12.8 for max tq. So what I would do is look where my torque is peaking on a dyno and richen from like 2400 to that point up to max tq and then start leaning it out to max hp then richen up a little bit to like 12.9 and set that as my rev limit. [/glow]

But you're saying it's a flat AFR from like 2400 to torque peak? So you're setting 2400<->peak as close to 12.8 as you can get?

[glow=red,2,300]I personally don't see an advantage to this, just stay very limited to how much you go WOT. Try not to at all.[/glow]
I have my PE entry set very low once the engine is warm, so it's tough for me to stay out of it.

[glow=red,2,300]As far as I know it doesn't help. [/glow]

I didn't think it does either. I only ask because your step recommends using a wideband to help.

[glow=red,2,300]Only advice I can give here is to set your WOT timing which is from like 3000rpm at .80 to your rev limit to approx. 28 degrees. Do a scan for knock, and decrease timing from necessary cells. Now you should have optimum timing. Do another scan to make sure no more Knock. [/glow]

But that's what I'm saying... all you're doing is removing knock. What if your engine will sustain 28* of clean timing at peak torque, but it would make more torque if it was at 25*? Would the only method to determine this be hours on the dyno?

[ozorowsky]

[glow=red,2,300]But that's what I'm saying... all you're doing is removing knock. What if your engine will sustain 28* of clean timing at peak torque, but it would make more torque if it was at 25*? Would the only method to determine this be hours on the dyno? [/glow]

Jim, you know A LOT more than me, but I've always been under impression that the more spark the merrier. Run as much timing as you can.

[02_SS]

im new here.hi to all but is there any way that we can compile all this info and make it a non-post sticky, so that us newb's can come here and have the exact info we need to do a newb tune?BTW i really like the way that 405HP ZO6 did his write-up(no offense OZ), the way he used > to put space in between the necessary spaces.good job, guys.

[ozorowsky]

yeah I'm going to use 405's write-up. Just haven't had time to edit yet. Soon though, soon.

[405HP_Z06]

405HP_Z06:

Step 2e: Instead of 'trying' not to enter PE, I believe there's a method to outright prevent entering PE for this purpose.

I agree, but it's easier to be easy on the pedal.

Step 2f: Cliff's Notes version - positive LTFT's indicate fuel is being added because you are lean. You need to richen this cell by increasing the VE value by the amount of the LTFT value. Just the opposite for negative LTFT's.

If LTFT = (4), VE cell value is 67, result would be (67)+(4)=71 - increasing the VE, which is adding fuel.

If the LTFT was (-4), the result would be (67)+(-4)=63, decreasing VE and thus reducing fuel.

Good verbiage, I included your text.

Step 3: How does a wideband sensor help you with your LTFT's? IF you have access to a wideband, why not use the wideband method to tune the fueling?

This is WOT PE tuning for narrow band oxygen sensors. The reference to LTFT's is just to ensure that they are already in the correct range(0 to -4). I took all references to a wide band oxygen sensor out of this section.

Step 3A: Everything I've read indicates it takes 50 minutes for LTFT values to stabilize, assuming you can hit all your typical cells. If you want to drive 120MPH for those first 100 miles, you should have it covered

Good point. I amended to read 50+ minutes or 100+ miles.

Step 4. This shows how to eliminate knock retard. I'm still looking for a method to optimize timing - how to extract max performance in each cell. I don't like assuming that max timing before KR means optimum power. I have a sample timing chart given to me by Wait4me, and I might try it out once SD is finished. It gained me 5-8twtq across the board on my LS1-Edit tune, but he's had better luck with other vehicles. Perhaps I'll see that better luck once my VE is done.

I think that tuning is an iterative process. Get the fuel/air correct and then work on spark. Get the spark as correct as possible and then look at fuel/air again.....I don't know how to best optimize timing values without just plain trial and error. If you know of a better way, please enlighten me. Can you send me the timing table that you refer to here? I'd like to take a look.

Thanks for all the excellent input! I keep learning more and more everytime I read this forum.

[JimMueller]

Wait4Me furnished me with the spark tables. Out of respect for his time to develop it, I'd prefer if you contacted him directly.

[DanaliHD]

OK, i'm lost.

why am i unplugging my MAFsensor? Do I drive for 15min or 50min? I did the 15min thing and my LTFT didn't even show up on the graph, just sat at 0. Is that correct or did i not drive around long enough?

[405HP_Z06]

OK, i'm lost.

why am i unplugging my MAFsensor? Do I drive for 15min or 50min? I did the 15min thing and my LTFT didn't even show up on the graph, just sat at 0. Is that correct or did i not drive around long enough?

This disconnects the MAF and the VE table. You want to tune the VE table first and then plug in the MAF sensor and scale the it's table to get the LTFT's back in line and match the new VE table.

Are you using the scanner histogram display? Was it zero while you were driving or did you save the log and then look at them?

[txhorns281]

Just for clarification, this describes a method of PE tuning at WOT correct? Would I still need to disable torque management for an M6? I'm going to assume that all the transmission settings and configurations I will discard for an M6???

Oz, you've verified your method on the dyno, anyone else have positive results?

Just ordered HPT this weekend, really excited to get into this world of automotive performance!!! Thanks to everyone for helping newbs!

Will

[Dragman]

OK, i'm lost.

Do I drive for 15min or 50min? I did the 15min thing and my LTFT didn't even show up on the graph, just sat at 0. Is that correct or did i not drive around long enough?

I drive for 20 - 30 mins after car has warmed up and I also use STFT not LTFT.

[J-Rod]

Optimium spark advance (timing) is not a matter of more is better.

Here is a little thread I started on ignition timing. Basically you want to run the optimum ammount of timing. But, if your motor doesn't need more timing, don't add it...

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254868

[405HP_Z06]

Thanks J-Rod. It will take me a little time to absorb all that information!

[ozorowsky]

Thank J-rod VERY informative. So in summation if you have access to a dyno and your adding timing between runs, keep adding 1 or 2 degrees at a time between runs, and when you notice your not making any more hp Stop.

HOWEVER if you are not DYNO tuning, just go the other method add timing until you get detonation and back off 1 or 2 degrees does this sound about right?

[CamTom12]

So I should do increase my timing before or after I start attacking the SD tuning?

[ozorowsky]

after follow instructions in first post step by step