THE Most Powerful and Neglected Tables in the LNF E69...

[Freakotec]

still cant get this idle smoothed out! It will looke beautiful for a few seconds then get choppy, then good, then awful. RPMs are fluxuating a little bit, but im thinking there might be something to do with cam tables. Ill attach two logs. First is what i had it at day 1 and second is what it is at today.

Yeah that basically looks like how my idle spark is right now more or less. Although mine will idle smooth then my trims will mildly start slightly oscillating with a very very mild rpm oscillation at times. So far I've tried messing with my dals at idle, spark corrections, lowering ad raising optimum spark idle values and even optimum torque with no real solutions. I even tried borrowing some of gmtech's idle values and still no good. This only seems to happening in closed loop though. In open loop it's actually very smooth. How does yours idle in open loop in comparison to closed loop just out of curiosity?

Oh yeah, by all means PM me if you want to compare some things btw.

[Dayhoff35]

Yeah that basically looks like how my idle spark is right now more or less. Although mine will idle smooth then my trims will mildly start slightly oscillating with a very very mild rpm oscillation at times. So far I've tried messing with my dals at idle, spark corrections, lowering ad raising optimum spark idle values and even optimum torque with no real solutions. I even tried borrowing some of gmtech's idle values and still no good. This only seems to happening in closed loop though. In open loop it's actually very smooth. How does yours idle in open loop in comparison to closed loop just out of curiosity?

Oh yeah, by all means PM me if you want to compare some things btw.

I'll pm you tonight, or email you if you send me your email, might be easier, when i try out the new file. The car seems fine until the engine gets warm, which is weird. It idles smoothly, but when it gets up to like ~160 idle gets a little rougher. Have some more ideas for tonight though, hopefully it is silky smooth by tomorrow!

[Ch1ck3n]

I just tried out some new off-idle timing with the optimum spark tables adjusted, and all I can say is wow.. Cold start was perfect, mid-range response was intense. I need to do some more adjustment in cruise and decel but the difference is night and day right off the bat.

GMT, I took your advice on the kr stuff and man the car is a completely different animal. It was actually scary how hard the car pulled with just a few small adjustments to timing and fuel.

Thanks for all the great info, I'll try and get some logs up asap.

[Dayhoff35]

i just messed with mine as well, logged 4 60-100 times, and they were all very close to each other. I dont know if im not pushing the tables far enough or what, but i have not seen any wot changes really. Would be interesting to see some other peoples tables compared to mine. Still have a few idle demons as well, but is mostly smooth.

[stromboli86]

Yeah that basically looks like how my idle spark is right now more or less. Although mine will idle smooth then my trims will mildly start slightly oscillating with a very very mild rpm oscillation at times. So far I've tried messing with my dals at idle, spark corrections, lowering ad raising optimum spark idle values and even optimum torque with no real solutions. I even tried borrowing some of gmtech's idle values and still no good. This only seems to happening in closed loop though. In open loop it's actually very smooth. How does yours idle in open loop in comparison to closed loop just out of curiosity?

Oh yeah, by all means PM me if you want to compare some things btw.

If its a difference of open and closed loop and the fuel trims are oscillating slightly i would venture to say that its from the Purge Solenoid because i monitor it on my logs and it kicks in at 140 degrees and when idling if its open my fuel trims oscillate very slightly

[silverbullet08]

Decided to play with this a little tonight. Ive got mine holding a steady 18.5* at 16% load and 5% throttle... sorta... It will hold for about 10 sconds then I will see a 15% load flicker in and out then it will start jumping all around for about 10 seconds then it goes back to a steady idle again... After playing with it, it seems like I am chasing the load through the DAL table as the load increases the timing wants to decrease and causes a fluctuation. Watching the throttle % as long as it stays between 3-5% the idle is perfect. When the load incrses randomly the throttle % goes to 20% right after and it hiccups. I dialed back the DAL table in those load areas but seems like Im just going further and further into more load. I tried advancing timing at that load so it wouldnt need the airflow to compensate but 22* doesnt seem enough.. hmmm

Edit: It seems if you raise the optimum spark table to a certain amount then you have complete timing control at idle about 27* over your commanded. Then raise or lower in equal amounts in both tables. Only issue is now it still wants to fluctuate about 5* but stays close to my commanded. Open loop is rough then closed loop is a night and day difference. We need loop control and it would make things easier. There is also a hidden table that controls ignition timing based on AFR. I have my multiplier table 0 out and when I get the random DAL spike AFR will go slightly lean then ignition will go to 0.

[Ch1ck3n]

A friend brought an idea to my attention, might have to give it a shot later, but just wondering what anyone might think of it.

He suggested setting the optimum spark tables to at or near what commanded spark is, to allow for more precise control of spark timing without computer intervention. It definitely made sense to me, but then I started to think that if airloads and torque satisfied the conditions of other torque management tables that the optimum spark might actually become a limiting factor.

Food for thought.. I'm on lunch break right now so I can't go out and try it immediately but I might need to see if this does anything or not.

[Dayhoff35]

I tried that and it dropped back down to like 5*, maybe if i raised up everything else it might help though.

[Freakotec]

If its a difference of open and closed loop and the fuel trims are oscillating slightly i would venture to say that its from the Purge Solenoid because i monitor it on my logs and it kicks in at 140 degrees and when idling if its open my fuel trims oscillate very slightly

That's a good idea. I may try disconnecting it while I'm messing with things and see if that helps at all. Thanks man.

Decided to play with this a little tonight. Ive got mine holding a steady 18.5* at 16% load and 5% throttle... sorta... It will hold for about 10 sconds then I will see a 15% load flicker in and out then it will start jumping all around for about 10 seconds then it goes back to a steady idle again... After playing with it, it seems like I am chasing the load through the DAL table as the load increases the timing wants to decrease and causes a fluctuation. Watching the throttle % as long as it stays between 3-5% the idle is perfect. When the load incrses randomly the throttle % goes to 20% right after and it hiccups. I dialed back the DAL table in those load areas but seems like Im just going further and further into more load. I tried advancing timing at that load so it wouldnt need the airflow to compensate but 22* doesnt seem enough.. hmmm

Edit: It seems if you raise the optimum spark table to a certain amount then you have complete timing control at idle about 27* over your commanded. Then raise or lower in equal amounts in both tables. Only issue is now it still wants to fluctuate about 5* but stays close to my commanded. Open loop is rough then closed loop is a night and day difference. We need loop control and it would make things easier. There is also a hidden table that controls ignition timing based on AFR. I have my multiplier table 0 out and when I get the random DAL spike AFR will go slightly lean then ignition will go to 0.

See now that's interesting. I had the exact opposite result for me. In open loop my idle is wayyyy smoother than in closed loop for some reason. I may try disconnecting my purge solonoid like stromboli recommended and see if that effects anything

A friend brought an idea to my attention, might have to give it a shot later, but just wondering what anyone might think of it.

He suggested setting the optimum spark tables to at or near what commanded spark is, to allow for more precise control of spark timing without computer intervention. It definitely made sense to me, but then I started to think that if airloads and torque satisfied the conditions of other torque management tables that the optimum spark might actually become a limiting factor.

Food for thought.. I'm on lunch break right now so I can't go out and try it immediately but I might need to see if this does anything or not.

I actually tried that at one point and came up with basically the same result that Dayhoff got. I even tried jacking up my commanded timing at idle, and made that match my optimum timing in the idle range and yeah, she didn't really seem to like it very much..

I'm going to try a few things when I get home from work and probably trade a few logs back and forth with Dayhoff and see what we can come up with together then post our results. I'm honestly getting a little frustrated at this point BUT I still have a few more ideas I want to try. Damn gmtech and is smooth as glass 20* idle!!

[Dayhoff35]

I'm going to try a few things when I get home from work and probably trade a few logs back and forth with Dayhoff and see what we can come up with together then post our results. I'm honestly getting a little frustrated at this point BUT I still have a few more ideas I want to try. Damn gmtech and is smooth as glass 20* idle!!

Yeah hopefully we get things smoothed out at idle atleast, i have a few more ideas as well. Im convinced gmtech cheated! haha jk. Ill just raise the values of the columns way up so it looks smooth .

[Dayhoff35]

just need to put finishing touches on!

[gmtech16450yz]

Looks good, you're getting it! You're not logging tps though so I can't see how your throttle/airload looks. And idle speed doesn't have to be that high, I'm at 800/850 and it's glass smooth.

Couple more idle and coastdown thoughts for you guys...
At least in my OS, even though there are two tables, one for A/C off and one for A/C on, it only seems to run off of the A/C off table no matter what. I've made them both the same since it doesn't seem to know when the A/C is on anyway. What does work though is the desired idle speed vs. gear. This helps with the A/C on and you coast up to a stop. I have my idle speeds 50rpm higher in gear and it makes for a smoother transition between pushing in the clutch and coasting, and coming to a complete stop.

The biggest thing to remember is what I keep saying, it's a balancing act between ign timing and throttle position. For instance, Dayhoff, now that you have a nice steady 20degrees ign timing, try lowering your airflow and see what happens. Or lower your desired idle speed. You have to be logging tps though so you can see where it's at.

I know we all get used to our own config setups, but you should really try out the "super cool" config I posted. Once you get used to things being in a little different places, you'll be able to see so much more of what's going on in your tunes. For instance, I have tps and pedal position in the same window and at the same scales. How many of you are logging pedal position vs. throttle position? You ABSOLUTELY need to be looking at both of those. They're nowhere near the same, except at full throttle after a half second or so.

[Dayhoff35]

i thought i had it on there i guess not though, i used yours the last few days, but switched over to mine today and forgot to add it i guess. Only other thing im having trouble with is when the ac came on it looked bad lol. Also it takes a while when the car starts to get up to the 20 unlike yours.

Going to try to lower idle and see how that goes.

[Dayhoff35]

Also since i pretty much have idle down for wot and mid range im trying to decide if i should advance or retard timing. I advanced it and did not really see any gains, as well as retarded it a bit and did not notice anything either. I dont know if i pushed them far enough or?

[gmtech16450yz]

Try raising the airflow (DALS) in the exact cells that it idles at when the A/C is on. It's usually around 30% load and 800-1000rpm. You might have to raise it a bunch, again, watch ign timing and when it starts going too low you know you're getting enough air.

On the ign timing in midrange and WOT, there's a bunch of factors to even be able to guess at what you should do, like what fuel are you running?

[Dayhoff35]

Im running e47 right now,and dont have my tune that agressive right now. Im switching back to 93 in a few weeks to go to school though.

[silverbullet08]

Heres a humdinger... Got pretty close last night on getting this right. Today I had to drive the car so I flashed back the factory optimum torque and Dal tables and forgot to do the ignition tables. Started the car and boom 19*-20* timing steady.... I was kinda excited at first, but knew that shouldnt be right. I went for a ride and the car wont boost. You can hear the turbo start to spool if you stayed in it long enough but wouldnt go over 1psi. So to eliminate things I pulled the boost ref line to my wastegate "10psi" spring. still 0 boost.... This one has me thinking....

[Dayhoff35]

^ that is really weird, only thing i can think of is that it is making the power you want it to and doesnt think you need boost, but that is unlikely.

I got mine dialed in closer tonight at 850rpms, only has two flaws now, when the fan cuts on it gets funky and when i first start it, its like its fighting itself to get upto 20*. Heres the newest log i have.

[silverbullet08]

^ that is really weird, only thing i can think of is that it is making the power you want it to and doesnt think you need boost, but that is unlikely.

I got mine dialed in closer tonight at 850rpms, only has two flaws now, when the fan cuts on it gets funky and when i first start it, its like its fighting itself to get upto 20*. Heres the newest log i have.

Only thing is i didnt change anything in the higher areas. Only at idle. Mine does the same thing at first start for the first 10 seconds then levels out. It may have to do with what I was talking about earlier with the open loop switch over to closed. There has to be more idle tables that we dont have. Or you could try more timing advance in the cold areas in your multipier table.

Edit: just looked at your log. You seem to be in the same boat as me. Try raising your airload slightly more in the idle section. It looks like your running about 3% more load than me at idle though. I would then think that your load is higher due to more airflow. Im running a journal bearing precision turbo so i bet its not going to make the same airflow at idle that your factory is.

[Freakotec]

Arg I swear gmtech is using some sort of black magic to get his idling the way it does. I'm about ready to hang myself with my hpt cable! lol

My idle would look halfway decent if I could just get my trims to stop freakin oscilating the way that they are