98 gtp 3.4 pulley with supporting mods 2.9 KR @ WOT

[Russ K]

Ok, before your damage your engine, zero the AFR Spark adder table. These engines don't want more than 14* WOT spark timing and I would start at 12*

Then get a wideband and tune the WOT AFR to 11.0 as per my Open Loop Maf tuning guide. http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...en+loop+tuning

Russ Kemp

[GeoJB]

Ok, before your damage your engine, zero the AFR Spark adder table. These engines don't want more than 14* WOT spark timing and I would start at 12*

Then get a wideband and tune the WOT AFR to 11.0 as per my Open Loop Maf tuning guide. http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...en+loop+tuning

Russ Kemp

Hope someone else chyme in to add any more advice than I can give.

Thank you
I do know that there is alot more that I need to lean.

[GPGTP]

Ok, before your damage your engine, zero the AFR Spark adder table. These engines don't want more than 14* WOT spark timing and I would start at 12*


Russ Kemp

sir, that is incorrect information. These engines respond well to timing, (it's well documented). I personally don't go past 22 degrees, if the engine can handle it without kr.

A rule of thumb is to never run less than stock but never more than 22ish. On gas I like to see 10.8-11.5 a/f ratio as well.

[Russ K]

sir, that is incorrect information. These engines respond well to timing, (it's well documented). I personally don't go past 22 degrees, if the engine can handle it without kr.

A rule of thumb is to never run less than stock but never more than 22ish. On gas I like to see 10.8-11.5 a/f ratio as well.

Ok, post a scan log running that much timing. What octane fuel? An NA V6 only takes 24* max.

Russ Kemp

[GPGTP]

These engines don't want more than 14* WOT spark timing and I would start at 12*

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...en+loop+tuning

Russ Kemp

I'm not really too concerned about proving it to you or not, it's pretty much common knowledge and I'm surprised your surprised by it. How many S/C'd 3800's have you tuned?

It all depends on boost level, intercooled or not.....fuel and a/f ratio.

My friends regal is at 23* timing.....no knock.

[Russ K]

Unlike you, I'm trying to help the OP. His car is showing KR as is, and your saying to slam 22* timing at it? And your saying that 22*-23* timing is common knowledge, but yet your scan is top secret? Or do we have to pay for your valuable time?

I've tuned 6 3800 SC cars, the one that took 16* timing had a ZZP intercooler, 2.9" or 3" pulley, 1.8 yella terra rockers, ported intake manifold/SC, 160* stat, SLP headers, high flow cat and 3" exhaust. Every other stock 3800 SC took 12* wot timing. Maybe your using E85?

Also had to retune several "dyno tuned" cars that had audible spark knock as you can get away with more timing on the dyno, but it will ping under load on the street. And the spark knock only gets worse by 3rd gear as the combustion chamber/intake charge temp is hotter.

Russ Kemp

[GPGTP]

Wow, I read the first couple lines of your response and decided the rest wasnt worth my time. You've completely misinterpreted my intentions so I'll leave with this. You said " 3800's don't like more than 14 degrees of timing". I say wrong and thats the end of it. To the OP, I don't have working home Internet right now but when it's fixed I can send you a few scans of different combinations. I have examples of e85, different pulleys, cams, heads etc, if it helps you out.

[RegalGShocker]

I have tuned over 35 3800 cars. I will agree 14* is a tad low. Stock table shows 10-12* but with the added calculations you can get 17-18* on a stock tune depending on IAT, engine coolant, and what not. On 93oct 17-18* non intercooled is ideal (WOT). Intercooled and/or E85 you can easily achieve 20*-24*
I ran 23* on a maxed build with a 2.7 and 5% OD.

[RegalGShocker]

OK i got my LTFT's dialed in tell me what you think....

Attachment 35294

Still need work.

[planethax]

remember to reset Fuel trims before logging.

[GPGTP]

I have tuned over 35 3800 cars. I will agree 14* is a tad low. Stock table shows 10-12* but with the added calculations you can get 17-18* on a stock tune depending on IAT, engine coolant, and what not. On 93oct 17-18* non intercooled is ideal (WOT). Intercooled and/or E85 you can easily achieve 20*-24*
I ran 23* on a maxed build with a 2.7 and 5% OD.

Thanks for the positive reinforcement of correct information.

[850Morrison]

Just got back to the tuning and had a friend kinda help me get it running really strong. But now im getting some odd KR. Several WOT scans show different KR Readings. Some Show None and others show 5 and when car downshifts from 3 to second reading 11 KR and no power. I found a little burnt spot on one of the plug wires where it touched the headers on the back of the motor and am going to get an new set to swap with. To whoever looks at the scan frame 6190 to 7450 i did a few quick WOT hits and only registered 0 to .9 kr. However frame 5702 to 5882 The car downshifted from 3rd to 2nd and got huge spikes of 11+ KR and No power what so ever. But from frames 3809 to 5370 some of the time i accel shows little to no knock and others show up to 6.2 KR. Its the same conditions same road 88 temp outside nothing changed between them besides the KR readings. Does this look like a KR sensor thats acting up or something hitting somewhere and causing false KR, or does it look related to the tune. Not an expert by any means but if it was the tune should the KR readings be fairly consistent and not deviate like the scan shows.
Thanks for looking

Attachment 36198

[850Morrison]

bump

[GPGTP]

I'll hook you up when I get a minute, been really busy

[850Morrison]

I think i finally got everything dialed in. Here is my tune and a scan log. The car is running great getting less then 1 kr. Next to try and get some decent fuel milage out of it. Still open to ideas for you more experienced guys. but thanks for all the input so far. I am considering dropping the timing down to 20 and eliminate all kr completely but from what i have been reading small blips of kr less than 1 here and there is ok, correct me if im wrong.
Attachment 36301
Attachment 36302

[MMGT1]

Find KR event and get your timing two degrees below where KR is completely gone. The only real way to find MBT is with a load bearing dyno. For us that do not have access to one, I suggest the following:
Find the timing where KR begins to blip on you, .8 is what I'm looking for
Once you have that remove 1*, scan again, and make sure KR is gone
Then remove an additional 2* from that area of the timing table and move on until you have mapped the entire timing table
MBT is in the area of 2* below KR and as much as 4* or so depending on Cyl pressure. Again, the only real way to find it is a dyno man. But, this will keep you safe and in the good power range at the same time.
As for timing in cruise, I just remove enough timing to remove KR as I am not aiming for MBT in cruise, I'm looking for max timing to aid in a bit of fuel economy... lol

just my 2-cnts

[GeoJB]

Good info, Thanks.

[GPGTP]

As for timing in cruise, I just remove enough timing to remove KR as I am not aiming for MBT in cruise, I'm looking for max timing to aid in a bit of fuel economy... lol

just my 2-cnts

finding MBT at cruise will actually give you the best mileage. In other words, you're making the most torque out of the given a/f mixture. More torque out of less gas means better mileage.

MBT at cruise will usually come well before knock as oppose to WOT where it comes close to or just below knock. It has to do with cylinder pressure and octane.

[MMGT1]

Well there you go, go even lower in cruise! I have always tuned mine to be just before KR in cruise. Ill pull a few from there and see how it does...

[GPGTP]

I'll be honest, it's very difficult to find MBT at part throttle cruise without a dyno. Otherwise it's trial and error while watching the gas gauge.