"The same as Injector Dynamics"

[zl1killer]

Posted well after ID originated the data. Further, the files don't even exist. I don't see what something from June of 2011 has to do since ID's files have existed since well before then.

that date has changed, it was different. The files were pulled down due to copyright infringement. Ask Paul.

Just because companies use the same core does not mean the end result is the same. Do you understand why the data is so different than the unmodified injector? Do you understand how they get matched?

lets lay it out. Exactly how do the tips get modified, how are they drilled? lets get some pictures going and etc so everyone can understand. CNC'd? on a lathe?

It's clear that this data shown in the article was "generated" by copying and pasting existing data, either from Injector Dynamics, or a factory tune, and then applying a multiplier that masks its true identity.

Deceitful? You bet.

there may need to be an improvement in the recorded data for better results.


I'm also very curious about every injector being tested and done and time invested.
Quoted from Greg Banish:

As long as the injectors are clean and functional, data collection takes about one full day in the lab for me to get what I consider the basics of characterization. This means a complete flow curve at 13.5v for a set of eight injectors at a single pressure and a shorter series of tests at varying voltages in order to find the trendline of offset vs voltage and populate that for the same single pressure.

Adding multiple pressure breakpoints simply adds a complete repeat of the procedure, as does running more than 8 pieces. I typically test 4 injectors at a time to make sure that their flow doesn't outstrip pump capacity or rail distribution, so testing 8pcs means two sets of four. If we are trying to get data for a part number rather than just a single set of flow matched injectors, then we really should test more than 8pcs. There can be build tolerances of +/-6% for production injectors, more for aftermarket. Finding the real "average" behavior requires that we test more samples in order to make sure we get a statistically significant sample.

The going rate for engineering consultation is north of $100/hr (just like a good lawyer, accountant, doctor, etc...) so spending a full day or three on this quickly eclipses the typical cost most associate with "engine tuning." I'm not recommending that everyone has every single injector measured, as this would be prohibitively expensive. But it is certainly nice to be able to have the confidence to say that you really know exactly how much fuel is being delivered on each shot. To some race teams or injector manufacturers, this cost is literally a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the operation. So for those guys, we try to make sure we have as much GOOD data as possible.

so you are telling me that every injector company A picks up, every single one is tested or modified and then tested and characterized with that many hours? How many employees does company A have? how is this profitable? do they have a 16 injector bench or more to do so many at once?

welcome to manufacturing 101 & profit (if item sells): design part(s), build a few, do some testing, make improvements, manufacture final part and test it. Mass Manufacturing and then check every so many part(s).
Then introduce human error if involved during part setup & making... and voila you have error(s). On a side note, that was what happened with one of my axles in my car and the company wouldn't believe me until I machined a testing plate with the bolt pattern and sent them pictures and videos of it not fitting and not being in tolerance.

[DSteck]

Copyright infringement you say? If so, then clearly ID owns it. However, I'm betting you are just using what's listed as one of the possible reasons it was removed.

ID will not share their procedure. Intellectual property should ring a bell. Further, it's clear that you don't fully understand where the data comes from.

In terms of the immense time involved in getting the data... Now you understand the cost of IDs. Paul built his own equipment... Not some off the shelf thing. He said it takes about four hours to get data. I couldn't tell you how many are done at once, but they are done in large batches. Then, they are grouped based on similar response times. That's where matched sets come from. Injectors that are far from the mean are tossed in the trash.

You are really clawing the empty barrel for ways to defend FIC. It's obvious you lied when you told me you just wanted more information and wanted to learn. The article is a cut and dry breakdown of how FIC manipulates competitor data (and occasionally mixes it with factory data), and calls it their own.

I really don't know what else to tell you. You will never believe it.

[zl1killer]

ID will not share their procedure. Intellectual property should ring a bell. Further, it's clear that you don't fully understand where the data comes from.

I don't care for sharing a procedure, the basics are fine, as understanding the basics is the beginning and then being able to "engineer" the best ways to modify the injector with the best results. fully understand, nope, as I haven't seen it done nor been involved in doing it.

it is true we will not get to the bottom of this, I guess no one will at this point.

There has been an investment made into ensuring that data can be acquired correctly & accurately, so I don't know what else to say. He has even spoken with Greg.

[DSteck]

There has been an investment made into ensuring that data can be acquired correctly & accurately, so I don't know what else to say. He has even spoken with Greg.

So this has only happened after this exposure. Got it. Lol.

[zl1killer]

So this has only happened after this exposure. Got it. Lol.

actually it was going on when this started

[DSteck]

actually it was going on when this started

I bet. Right on.

[zl1killer]

I guess we will all see where it goes from here

[DSteck]

Right on.

[zl1killer]

Right on.

on what? and actually, I raise you. Who are these people, and why do they have so similar tables & etc?

Originally Posted by JOHNBOY66 @ LS1Tech seen here:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/16668647-post26.html

Look at the pdf.
http://boschdealer.com/specsheets/bosch827specsheet.pdf

Look here:
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000.html
Compare the two starting at " Explanation of Dynamic Flow Graphs".

I have saved all this in case it gets taken down. Does ID work with them? Does ID know they are also using their graphs and "lingo", are they affiliated?

base page takes you here:
http://boschdealer.com/index.php?main_page=index - Muscle Motors

http://boschdealer.com/index.php?mai...products_id=47

[DSteck]

on what? and actually, I raise you. Who are these people, and why do they have so similar tables & etc?

Originally Posted by JOHNBOY66 @ LS1Tech seen here:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/16668647-post26.html

Look at the pdf.
http://boschdealer.com/specsheets/bosch827specsheet.pdf

Look here:
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000.html
Compare the two starting at " Explanation of Dynamic Flow Graphs".

I have saved all this in case it gets taken down. Does ID work with them? Does ID know they are also using their graphs and "lingo", are they affiliated?

base page takes you here:
http://boschdealer.com/index.php?main_page=index - Muscle Motors

http://boschdealer.com/index.php?mai...products_id=47

Just more wannabes. It's nothing new seeing another injector vendor use ID's stuff verbatim. Look up "xspurt" injectors. They show the exact same dead time table in their "data".

If it quacks like a duck...

[zl1killer]

Did all these other offending businesses get sent cease and desist letters that have used IDs data? What is the total now for offending businesses?

My sole question is why do you seem to be so focused after FIC?

[LSxpwrdZ]

Probably because they go out of their way to "say" it's their generated data and advertise with someone elses data. Thats about like me as a tuner swiping a tune from DStek for a procharged C6Z and putting that tune file in other similar cars and calling it mine, when it's plainly not.

I can see using the material in FIC point of view but in legal business to use propietary material like this a detailed reference to the datas source or permission from the originator is needed. Those other company's selling injectors and using the material may have just not been cought yet.

In the end any person with a bit of common sense, pulse generator/controller, graduated cylinder or weight scale can easily generate this data. It's not some huge secret how this stuff works but ripping off someone that has put in the hard work to generate the data is also uncalled for.

[zl1killer]

Probably because they go out of their way to "say" it's their generated data and advertise with someone elses data. Thats about like me as a tuner swiping a tune from DStek for a procharged C6Z and putting that tune file in other similar cars and calling it mine, when it's plainly not.

I can see using the material in FIC point of view but in legal business to use propietary material like this a detailed reference to the datas source or permission from the originator is needed.

as has been mentioned already in this thread, the data that was found and that was spread all over had no owner information on it. So if that was all that you had ever seen and someone asked for data on those size and type of bosch injectors, hell, I'd post it. As I wouldn't know it belonged to any specific person, as there was no shown "owner" with that file(s). Kind of like how that HPTuner/EFI Live IFR calculate sheet got spread around with no credit, but they thanked whoever did make it, which I have never seen or heard who did. And it isn't at all that hard to come up with those numbers either.

and just so we are clear, FIC has the equipment to generate data, two machines now, and whether you like it or not, they are not using IDs data. And before you go and say the data is incorrect or just a multiplication of this and that, the point right now is that it is not IDs data.

Muscle Motor bosch injectors little technical article with an exact freaking copy of IDs stuff...that is nuts

[DSteck]

Probably because they go out of their way to "say" it's their generated data and advertise with someone elses data.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

and just so we are clear, FIC has the equipment to generate data, two machines now, and whether you like it or not, they are not using IDs data. And before you go and say the data is incorrect or just a multiplication of this and that, the point right now is that it is not IDs data.

O RLY?

How do you explain what was shown in the article? There were data sheets YOU supplied FROM FIC that ate blatant rip offs with a poor attempt at masking the original source. How do you explain FIC originally handing out ID's EXACT Excel file with the ID logos removed? This is the same company that used to give out data for stock injectors because they claimed the offset and short pulse adder didn't change since the injector internals were the same, completely ignoring the fact that the offset and short pulse adder are dynamic modifiers, and not functions of injector internals.




I genuinely can't keep reading what this kid says.

[zl1killer]

As far as stock injectors modified and using stock offsets Before anyone fucked with this data you started somewhere. So a million cars were tuned with tweaked stock data. FIC mods stock injectors up 25% max. So you can tune around the offset difference with great results.

I really don't understand your continuous rant about data. If I take someones injector data and I multiply it by a little, then tweak it a little more, I don't care what you say, it isn't your data or table any more. And with that if no one knows what you started from or where you found some reference data and tweaked it then who the hell knows.

and i said it before and i'll say it again, that excel sheet was handed out as it was acquired as is, but it doesn't matter, no one is winning at this and I have better things to do with my life than keep this up. Kid...we are within a year of each other. Guess we will see where the road goes.

[DSteck]

I'm going to reprint War and Peace, but in a different font. I'll call it my own. That's legit.

[zl1killer]

war and peace happens every day. and its not only a different font, but the numbers are different. the only damn reason this continues is due to the original file that was emailed that you have shown, otherwise this fuss wouldn't be happening, as the data isn't the same, and FIC sells other injectors than what ID does and offers data that is not IDs data so wtf man.

I'm willing to bet that in the beginning that "data" spread like wildfire and a few were caught red handed with it and I will also bet some got it second hand and had no clue about whose it was or how it came about but kept it and when someone asked about an injector and they were like hey, yeh I have information on that. BAM, hey fool thats copyrighted data that we spent some hard time on. shit sorry didn't know, slap on the hand.

I'm betting this because I HAVE SEEN IT HAPPEN

[DSteck]

Right on.

[joecar]

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

O RLY?

How do you explain what was shown in the article? There were data sheets YOU supplied FROM FIC that ate blatant rip offs with a poor attempt at masking the original source. How do you explain FIC originally handing out ID's EXACT Excel file with the ID logos removed? This is the same company that used to give out data for stock injectors because they claimed the offset and short pulse adder didn't change since the injector internals were the same, completely ignoring the fact that the offset and short pulse adder are dynamic modifiers, and not functions of injector internals.




I genuinely can't keep reading what this kid says.

Hmmm... those blue/yellow background colors are what I originally used in my LS9/LS3/L92/L76 interpolation spreadsheets, so how can that be "ID's EXACT Excel file with the ID logos removed?"...?

[joecar]

Even the green "LS1B" and red "LS3/7" labels are mine ("LS1B" specifically being EFILive terminology).