Stall converter tune, can it be done?

[Wilde Racing]

I have a Art Carr 2800 stall, I'd like it to act more like the stock converter, it seams to slip a lot more and takes much longer to lock up. I'm not sure I can tune to "tighten" this issuse or if the convertor/trans is working fine, and I'm just a idiot.

[S2H]

the truth is...mechanically...its designed to NOT be like stock...

you can do some things to to smoot it out.....

change shift points for Part throttle, change tcc apply and release tables, change the shift pressures.....it will never quite act liek stock...but it will be a lot smoother and nicer with a little bit of pushing it around

[Wilde Racing]

That is kinda what I was looking for, now where to begain? any ideas?

It is the truck in the sig below, I'm going to be towing a 20' boat this next summer and would like to have a good tow tune aswell as a normal driving tune. so far I have played with part throttle shift, Force motor current, TCC duty cycle min, and Apply/Release speeds.

Speed Shift vs. TPS vs. Shift Normal
12.00000 9.00000 9.00000 11.00000 13.50000 15.50000 18.50000 22.50000 26.00000 30.00000 33.00000 35.50000 38.00000 39.00000 40.00000 40.00000 40.00000
16.00000 16.00000 16.00000 18.50000 22.50000 26.50000 33.00000 39.00000 45.00000 50.00000 53.00000 56.00000 60.00000 64.00000 67.00000 70.00000 70.00000
22.00000 22.00000 23.50000 28.00000 33.00000 40.00000 64.00000 75.00000 80.00000 83.00000 95.00000 95.00000 95.00000 95.00000 95.00000 95.00000 95.00000
7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 7.00000 35.00000 35.00000
14.00000 14.00000 14.00000 14.00000 14.00000 14.00000 16.00000 18.00000 22.00000 26.00000 30.00000 34.00000 38.00000 40.50000 44.00000 64.00000 64.00000
20.00000 20.00000 20.00000 20.00000 20.00000 20.00000 23.00000 26.00000 32.00000 37.00000 45.00000 55.00000 65.00000 75.00000 83.00000 85.00000 85.00000

Force Motor Current vs. Command Line Pressure vs. Temp-positive
1113.28128 1015.62503 991.21096 966.79690 932.61721 893.55471 854.49221 810.54690 766.60158 717.77346 659.17970 600.58595 532.22658 449.21876 346.67970 219.72657 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1015.62503 991.21096 966.79690 932.61721 893.55471 854.49221 810.54690 766.60158 717.77346 659.17970 600.58595 532.22658 449.21876 346.67970 219.72657 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1030.27346 1005.85940 971.67971 932.61721 893.55471 854.49221 815.42971 776.36721 727.53908 673.82814 615.23439 546.87501 473.63282 375.97657 253.90626 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1030.27346 1000.97659 961.91409 927.73440 888.67190 854.49221 815.42971 771.48439 722.65627 673.82814 610.35158 551.75783 478.51564 380.85938 249.02344 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1030.27346 1000.97659 966.79690 932.61721 893.55471 859.37502 820.31252 776.36721 732.42189 678.71095 620.11720 561.52345 493.16407 405.27345 283.20313 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1040.03909 1005.85940 971.67971 932.61721 893.55471 859.37502 820.31252 781.25002 732.42189 683.59377 625.00002 566.40626 498.04689 405.27345 283.20313 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1035.15628 1000.97659 961.91409 927.73440 893.55471 854.49221 820.31252 776.36721 727.53908 678.71095 620.11720 561.52345 493.16407 400.39064 273.43751 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1030.27346 996.09378 961.91409 927.73440 888.67190 854.49221 815.42971 771.48439 727.53908 673.82814 615.23439 551.75783 483.39845 390.62501 258.78907 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1020.50784 986.32815 952.14846 917.96877 883.78908 849.60940 810.54690 766.60158 722.65627 668.94533 610.35158 551.75783 478.51564 385.74220 249.02344 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1015.62503 981.44534 947.26565 908.20315 874.02346 844.72658 805.66408 761.71877 717.77346 659.17970 605.46877 546.87501 473.63282 375.97657 234.37501 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1010.74221 971.67971 937.50002 903.32034 869.14065 839.84377 800.78127 761.71877 712.89064 654.29689 600.58595 541.99220 468.75001 371.09376 224.60938 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 1000.97659 966.79690 932.61721 893.55471 864.25783 834.96096 795.89846 751.95314 708.00783 649.41408 595.70314 537.10939 463.86720 351.56251 175.78125 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 996.09378 957.03127 922.85159 888.67190 859.37502 825.19533 791.01564 747.07033 703.12502 644.53127 590.82033 532.22658 458.98439 346.67970 180.66407 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 991.21096 952.14846 917.96877 883.78908 854.49221 820.31252 786.13283 742.18752 693.35939 639.64845 585.93751 527.34376 454.10157 336.91407 151.36719 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 981.44534 947.26565 908.20315 878.90627 849.60940 815.42971 781.25002 737.30471 688.47658 629.88283 576.17189 522.46095 449.21876 332.03126 146.48438 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 976.56252 942.38284 903.32034 874.02346 844.72658 810.54690 771.48439 727.53908 678.71095 625.00002 571.28908 512.69533 434.57032 312.50001 141.60157 141.60157 1245.11722
1113.28128 976.56252 942.38284 903.32034 874.02346 844.72658 810.54690 771.48439 727.53908 678.71095 625.00002 571.28908 512.69533 434.57032 312.50001 141.60157 141.60157 1245.11722

TCC DC Minimum vs. Line Pressure vs. Trans Temp
81.00528 69.00540 61.00650 54.00555 50.00458 46.00665 43.00668 41.00467 39.00571 36.00574 35.00473 34.00372 29.00479 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583
79.00631 67.00644 59.00448 52.00659 48.00561 44.00464 41.00467 39.00571 37.00369 34.00372 33.00577 32.00476 29.00479 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583
77.00735 65.00442 57.00552 50.00458 46.00665 42.00567 39.00571 37.00369 35.00473 32.00476 31.00375 30.00580 28.00378 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583
76.00634 64.00647 56.00451 49.00662 45.00564 41.00467 38.00470 36.00574 34.00372 31.00375 30.00580 29.00479 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583
76.00634 64.00647 56.00451 49.00662 45.00564 41.00467 38.00470 36.00574 34.00372 31.00375 30.00580 29.00479 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583 27.00583

TCC Apply/Release Speed vs. TPS vs. Gear -Normal
255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 35.00000 40.00000 45.00000 45.00000 45.00000 45.00000 45.00000 45.00000 45.00000 45.00000 45.00000
255.00000 35.00000 35.00000 35.00000 35.00000 37.00000 40.00000 50.00000 55.00000 60.00000 60.00000 60.00000 60.00000 60.00000 60.00000 60.00000 60.00000
255.00000 35.00000 35.00000 35.00000 35.00000 37.00000 40.00000 50.00000 55.00000 60.00000 61.00000 62.00000 62.00000 72.00000 79.00000 79.00000 79.00000
255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000 255.00000
255.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 30.00000 32.50000 36.00000 56.00000 56.00000
255.00000 32.00000 32.00000 32.00000 32.00000 32.00000 32.00000 32.00000 32.00000 32.00000 37.00000 47.00000 57.00000 67.00000 75.00000 77.00000 77.00000

I started playing with this tabbles first, the convertor locks up sooner but still seams slow to apply, is that normal with a stall?
Do this tables look ok, what could I do to help the converter splip less locked and unlocked? most inportand safe for the converter and trans?


How do you post the tabbles so you can read them easier? sorry for all the questions

Thanks for looking

[jimmyblue]

I'd set the TCC min and max duty tables to all 98.

Your force motor current at low line is way higher
than I was able to tolerate, with my TCI 3000 and
its itty bitty clutch. More current = less line pressure,
TCC apply available pressure is TCC duty * line% *
mechanical line regulator pressure. Line% on my car
is commanded at 0% at cruise, good luck locking
with that unless you lie and say 0% line is lower
force motor current. I went pretty low with the TCI
and have been able to back out some with the new
Fuddle.

Here is my force motor table as-was, no warranty
expressed or implied; look at it as, "I went this far
and survived", not as a prescription; all you need
is "just enough".

Force Motor - Positive

639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563
639.64845 478.51564 322.26563 239.25782 161.13282 122.07032 78.12500 58.59375 39.06250 19.53125 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563 9.76563

[Wilde Racing]

I'm sorry I kinda got lost there at the 0% crusie, (I/m very new) the stock Force motor for the 4l80e starts at 1069.336 is this way to high for a higher stall convertor?
Slao is there a easier way to copy past a posted table? I've loaded it to a spread sheet, but I can't trancfer it to HPTuner. Can that be done or do I justhave to enter in each cell.

Again sorry for all the questions, I'm learning, lol.

[S2H]

hey jimmy..do an export(save table as) to a txt file in HPT on those tables
so he can just use the load table button to import

then just attatch it here

[Wilde Racing]

O.K so I copied jimmyblue's Force Motor table and set all my TCC Duty tabbles Min max (both tables) duty cycles to 98. The converter seams to slip less, especially during lock up. now 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 is a bit more harsh but I most worried about the trans how long will it last, or will this have no ill effects?

[MNR-0]

Jim,

Thats a VERY aggressive force motor table. I never touch the force motor table as you can overdrive the solenoids burning them out. Changing the force motor table also modifies your base shift pressures.

You are right about the TCC apply pressures. I set my max table to 100 everywhere and my minimum to 70 for the forst 3 rows and 98 the last 2 rows. Other than that, TCC tuning is about finding the point it wants to slip and commanding an unlock just before that happens. You can monitor all this via the scanner "TCC Slip RPM" PID.

Making a stall feel like stock is a tall ask. The best thing you can do is set your upshift points higher so that you ride the stall RPM at mid throttle. That way, you arent flashing through the converter slip and heating up your tranny as much.

If you still have TCC lock issues then you can get a valve modification done to increase fluid flow for the TCC apply.

[jimmyblue]

I know it's aggressive and I try to tell people they
don't need to go that far, unless they have the
same problem I did. The smart thing would be to
start adding back in force motor current until you
start to find some unacceptable slip and then back
out a bit.

Not sure what you mean about burning out the
solenoids. The force motor sees full current at
idle and less current is what I'm commanding.

I have backed out some myself with the new
Fuddle converter as it has a mondo clutch. The
less pressure / more current you can run, the
less oil pump drag etc.

I wonder if the 4L80E he's running, has the same
sort of TCC fluid circuit & modification? I'd like to
find more on that (for 4L60E) myself.

[Wilde Racing]

O.K I added some back to the force table, and rasied my shift points, I also have it locking sooner, will city driving bother the converter if it has to lock and unlock all the time?

[Wilde Racing]

And why 98 on tcc PWM ? Why not 100????

[jimmyblue]

I never tried 100, just saw 98 as the applied max
in my stock tune and figures that was "known
safe". I doubt 100 would blow anything.

[S2H]

something that seems to be popular here in the KC are is for guys with bigger stalls..theu liek to lower all part throttle shift points so they can get into 4th gear sooner...
seems that about 80% of stock works well(multiply the entire table by 0.8)...not too low....yet gets in 4th fast enough for them

[Wilde Racing]

Thanks for the reply, Jimmyblue, I've done a lot of searches and I'm haveing the same problem you were with the torque converter sliping during lock up with a small load. With the help of you, soundengineer and MNR-O, it acts much better. I can still "see" the converter slip up to 250 rpm with a big load. I've ordered a trans line pressure gauge set. I plan on watching my line pressures and see if I can safely go more.
How much slip are you seeing at lock up before it down shifts?

[Wilde Racing]

If you still have TCC lock issues then you can get a valve modification done to increase fluid flow for the TCC apply.

Can any body give me more info on this? ill effects?
Changing the force table has hleped a lot, but I have be removing a ton in the upshift modifier table, (mine now starts somewere around -43) It still shifts harst from first to second.
Also what is the most slip are you all seeing at lock-up??

[MNR-0]

Call John Cameron from Fuddle Racing http://www.fuddleracing.com

He can answer your question about the valve body modification for TCC apply. Also, a competent tranny builder could do this for you.

[Wilde Racing]

Well checked into valve body mod., mine has already been done. I hooked up a gauge and found I had 170 psi of line pressure at lock-up, wich is in spec. Called ART CARR and was told the converter I bought was not designed for heavy loads, and will slip at lock-up, so the stock converter is going back in.
Thanks for the help every-one!