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Thread: LSJ Injectors 101. Your basic how-to.

  1. #1
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    LSJ Injectors 101. Your basic how-to.

    First, let me state that I am in no way trying to step on anyones toes here. I am simply trying to educate the LSJ world about injectors. I do not want to see people deal with the frustration I went through.

    There seems to be a ton of misinformation floating around about injectors in general, let alone in the LSJ world. There is a couple injector offset tables floating around for our cars, and I have done the math and improved upon them.

    I bought some Bosch EV14 630cc injectors to use with my car. The advertised offset at 14v was just over 1ms, according to the Bosch spec sheet. I even received GM offset charts with them in the normal LS1-E40-E67 formats. My IFR tables were setup correctly. I interpolated the data into the LSJ charts and started the car. It was pig rich. I could not remove enough fuel from the MAF and VE tables to make it even close.

    I know you are thinking I did not set something up right, but I assure you it was. I even tuned my car when it was stock so I have a solid reference to fall back on. I scaled my tune by 50%, just like the LS guys do for big injectors and for hitting the 1.36 G/cyl wall. Nothing changed. On paper you should be able to swap injectors, and as long as your injector data is correct, you should not have to change any trims. In reality nothing is perfect and at max you should not see more than a 2-3% change in fueling if nothing else was changed but injectors.

    What I have discovered is the LSJ computer(P12) has a parameter that HP Tuners has not mapped out that needs to be changed. This parameter is available on about every other PCM/ECM they support. There is a way around it by cutting the offsets in half, and it tunes in well. Only issue here is on coastdown and at idle the engine will RPM hunt due to wide AFR swings, and some pretty crazy temp related AFR swings.

    The other way is to pretty much cut 60% off the MAF/VE tables around idle. This causes a basket case of other problems too, like MAF HZ out of test range code.

    You can scale the tune just like the V8's, and you still have to pull a ton of fuel at idle, and there are even more problems that come out of this. Also, HP Tuners has not mapped out everything you need to change to properly scale a tune, like Airflow Mode, Max Torque timing, Knock retard tables, Transient fuel multipliers, Complex cylinder charge bias tables, and so on. And you can forget ever trying to run an automatic....all the torque tables are airflow based.

    Another way is to half the IFR table then double the stoich value. This method seems to work pretty good so far for me, but I am only a few days into playing with it. Only downside so far is the computer keeps going open loop everytime I come to idle due to the IVT calculated temps......which we cant modify because its not mapped out.



    I have also verified the IFR voltage multiplier table DOES NOT WORK above 63.5....no matter what. The computer will only go up to 63.5....and the multiplier does not take it any farther.
    Last edited by lwrs10; 01-16-2014 at 08:31 PM.

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    Injector Selection.....and reasons why


    The stock injectors are a split pattern dual cone spray injector. There is a huge reason for this, since our motors are a 4 valve design. There is an intake runner splitter right in front of the valves. The proper injector will spray right on the back of both valves for maximum fuel atomization and efficiency....just like the factory injectors does.

    Stock injector:


    Bosch injector I have:



    Not an LSJ head, but same concept here:



    basic spray patterns:



    Siemens 60lb Deka specs including spray pattern:




    And here is a good read too...
    http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...ex&cPath=10_44

    Problem here is most people slap in the Siemens 60 and 80 pound Deka injectors, which are a single pattern cone spray. This intake split is about an inch and a half away from the tip of the injector, so this single 26* cone is spraying right on the split before it is even broader than an inch. This is very very bad, as it causes the fuel to lose its atomization and leads to fuel pooling in the intake as well as very inconsistent transient fueling. This single factor right here is why the idle is so poor with these injectors. Many people tell me they got their car to idle great with these injectors, and I simply have to call bullshit. No way you can get this style injector to idle as smooth as stock. You can get them to idle OK with no surging, but not perfect.

    The injector I chose is a Bosch EV14 injector, part number 0280158123. You have to use an adapter on the nozzle to make it work, but many injector shops have this adapter. They are slightly longer than 60mm(stock length) at 64.5mm, but I had no trouble since the stock fuel rail is at a 45 degree angle. The spray pattern is a split cone 25* just like the factory injector. They flow 60.5lb/hr @43.5psi, and 72.02@58psi which is the stock LSJ fuel pressure. Another good point is the minimum linear pulse width is .711ms, compared to the 1.4 for the Siemens 60's. This is HUGE for our tiny motors, since idle is typically around 1.2, and deaccel is .7ish. My idle is as good if not better than factory right now, and transient fueling is very smooth with these.

    More info about the injector I went with:
    http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US...2775993867.pdf

    Pic of this Bosch injector with the adapter:


    I bought them from Fuel Injector Connection in Georgia for about $60 each. That makes them about $100 more than the Siemens, and it is money well spent. Ask for Jon there, and he will know exactly which injectors you need. He will put the tip adapters on them and they will be a direct drop in.

    I started with the Siemens 60's, and I can tell you those are a terrible injector for a 4 valve motor. You want the injector to spray on the back of the valves, not at the intake split. Please do some research before you follow everyone else and purchase the Siemens.

    Next up, LSJ injector offset tables for most common injectors.
    Last edited by lwrs10; 08-07-2013 at 09:01 PM.

  3. #3
    im glad someone finally explained the offsets in a way that i can understand. i really appreciate that you put all of this together.
    Last edited by GM COBALT SC SS; 01-18-2014 at 09:27 PM.

  4. #4
    Ah, some good info for the LSJ!

    Do you have the injector values for this Bosch motorsport injector in P12/HPT format?

    Trying to understand your offset findings, but you said you used half the offset value to get the 10%, so that means the P12 doubles the original value put there? Or has this maybe to do with your 50% scaled tune???

  5. #5
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    I got the same results with a scaled tune and a not scaled tune. I really wish I knew why, but at this moment I know only what needs to be done to make it work.

    And yes, I have the values for almost all Bosch injectors for the p12.

  6. #6
    Read some good reviews on the net about these, compared to the Siemens Deka's...

    Reading the Bosch sheet, the 0280158123 is the most suitable 2-spray injector with 429g-627cc/min. I see they have the standard 48.65mm housing with extended 24mm tip, so what adapters did you use for these? (will compare this with stock inj. length)
    I have some new 60 Deka's waiting to be tuned with my harrop, but very tempted to go directly for the Bosch...
    (what connector type have these?)

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    updated post with more info.

  8. #8
    So these Siemens I have could be or are the cause of my
    afr problem lean, rich swings, when going into pe ?
    and my shitty idle

    2.4 turbo

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecotec2.4 View Post
    So these Siemens I have could be or are the cause of my
    afr problem lean, rich swings, when going into pe ?
    and my shitty idle

    2.4 turbo

    Maybe, without seeing your tune and a log no way to tell. I can say they are not helping your problem.

  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner omega_5's Avatar
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    I'm just going to leave this here.
    http://www.redlineforums.com/forums/...ts-pics-5.html
    There is so much to learn about injectors, and how to tune them.

    The one point I will make, though.... 60's not idling right is not the fault of the injector.
    I run 60's... with a dead smooth idle... at 720rpm. I've managed to get 80's to idle smooth at 850rpm. You just need to put in the seat time.
    Tyler

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by omega_5 View Post
    I'm just going to leave this here.
    http://www.redlineforums.com/forums/...ts-pics-5.html
    There is so much to learn about injectors, and how to tune them.

    The one point I will make, though.... 60's not idling right is not the fault of the injector.
    I run 60's... with a dead smooth idle... at 720rpm. I've managed to get 80's to idle smooth at 850rpm. You just need to put in the seat time.


    No matter what I did I could not get the Siemens to idle as good as I wanted. They were smooth, but nowhere near these Bosch injectors. And I do think it is the fault of an improper application injector. It should not take hours of tweaking just to get a car to idle right. The fact that our idle pulsewidth is below the specs of the Siemens makes tuning them 100x harder. I am running 60's right now at 750rpm and they are butter smooth, but they also have a minimum linear pulsewidth of .711, not 1.4ish like the Siemens.
    Last edited by lwrs10; 08-08-2013 at 04:49 PM.

  12. #12
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    At the time the seimens were a good fit but with an additional 8 years its very possible something better has arose and i believe that is the case we are seeing here.
    A change in technology has led to an updated change in information. I see a new option has presented itself that's all.
    Last edited by cobaltssoverbooster; 08-08-2013 at 06:49 PM.
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post
    At the time the seimens were a good fit but with an additional 8 years its very possible something better has arose and i believe that is the case we are seeing here.
    A change in technology has led to an updated change in information. I see a new option has presented itself that's all.
    When us 'good old boys' grabbed bigger injectors back in the day, we didn't just pick any random injector off the shelf. A Ford Racing injector was selected because of it's decent compatibility with 4V heads, and had proper offset data available.
    In my opinion, until someone gets a proper set of offsets from someone reputable (like Yaw Power), all other injectors are inferior. I know some people will get all huffy and puffy about it, but Fuel Injector Connection is simply handing out butchered versions of Yaw tables. I'd rather use the stock offsets than something they threw together. Do a thread search, it's sad.

    If I had to rank it out; Bosch injectors w/ good data > Siemens injectors w/ good data > Bosch injectors w/ junk data (what we have now).

    Now, with this all said; I used to be one of those guys that went out and tracked down LSJ information for the community, but I simply don't have the time anymore; I have too many other projects on the go to jump back into the LSJ community. The number one piece of advice I can give the next generation of GM sport compact owners is this; make some calls. A google search will only get you so far. In this case, someone simply has to pick up the phone and call Paul Yaw. He is one of the leading experts in injectors, and probably knows the GT500 injectors better than Bosch themselves. I'd be will to bet that he'd give someone the proper tables if they asked.
    This is probably one simple call away from being a big contribution to the LSJ community.
    Tyler

  14. #14
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    ive talked to paul yaw before. super nice guy! he sent me data for a set of injectors i really didnt want to run but man were they nice after his data solved a bunch of issues i was having.
    i lost his contact number years ago when i accidentally tried to flush my iphone down the shitter 8(
    2000 Ford Mustang - Top Sportsman

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    Quote Originally Posted by omega_5 View Post
    When us 'good old boys' grabbed bigger injectors back in the day, we didn't just pick any random injector off the shelf. A Ford Racing injector was selected because of it's decent compatibility with 4V heads, and had proper offset data available.
    In my opinion, until someone gets a proper set of offsets from someone reputable (like Yaw Power), all other injectors are inferior. I know some people will get all huffy and puffy about it, but Fuel Injector Connection is simply handing out butchered versions of Yaw tables. I'd rather use the stock offsets than something they threw together. Do a thread search, it's sad.

    If I had to rank it out; Bosch injectors w/ good data > Siemens injectors w/ good data > Bosch injectors w/ junk data (what we have now).

    Now, with this all said; I used to be one of those guys that went out and tracked down LSJ information for the community, but I simply don't have the time anymore; I have too many other projects on the go to jump back into the LSJ community. The number one piece of advice I can give the next generation of GM sport compact owners is this; make some calls. A google search will only get you so far. In this case, someone simply has to pick up the phone and call Paul Yaw. He is one of the leading experts in injectors, and probably knows the GT500 injectors better than Bosch themselves. I'd be will to bet that he'd give someone the proper tables if they asked.
    This is probably one simple call away from being a big contribution to the LSJ community.

    First, I did not receive offset data for an LSJ with these injectors. I started with the Bosch spec sheet for these and went from there. Turns out the offset values were very close to a few other similar injectors out there, like the GT500 ones.

    Second, as I have told you before, these are not the GT500 injectors. Different part number, different plug, different length, different flow. The only thing similar are they are made by Bosch.

    Third, we have good data for the LSJ for these now, as I have spent hundreds of hours making the correct offset tables, and they are verified to be 100% correct. I could care less about the numbers that someone comes up with on a bench for injectors for the LSJ, because they simply do not work in these cars. Take the Siemens data in your table, and do the 10% fuel test. I got 5.1% change with that data. The data in your worksheet is correct for every other car made, just not the P12 LSJ platform. Something in this PCM OS is weird and uses 50% of the offsets.

    And now that I think about it, the 2006-2012 57# and the 2013 60# GT500 injector would be a very good choice for these motors too, and there is good offset data out there for them already. Greg Banish himself put that data out.


    And as far as the Fuel Injector Connection thing, they hire someone to transpose the offset data for them. They measure the offsets, then have someone chart them out. I really do not know exactly what happened since i have seen that write up. If you buy these injectors, guess who made the offset tables that will be emailed to you from FIC? Me. I made them with hundreds of hours of trial and error, for free.

    I would rather you did not call my work "junk", because it isnt. The simple test on any injector data is simply add 10% more fuel, and see of your actual AFR follows. With my numbers it does exactly. I have done this for the Siemens 60's, Siemens 80's, and the Bosch injectors I have. I am simply trying to save people some headaches and make the LSJ tuning process alot easier for everyone.
    Last edited by lwrs10; 08-11-2013 at 12:04 AM.

  16. #16
    Just curious to this "10% offset test procedure".
    I understand how that is supposed to work, but did you do this 10% test at various voltages and loads? If you do this @idle the bigger injectors will be in their non linear PW area with the Adders table etc.

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner omega_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwrs10 View Post
    First, I did not receive offset data for an LSJ with these injectors. I started with the Bosch spec sheet for these and went from there. Turns out the offset values were very close to a few other similar injectors out there, like the GT500 ones.

    Second, as I have told you before, these are not the GT500 injectors. Different part number, different plug, different length, different flow. The only thing similar are they are made by Bosch.

    Third, we have good data for the LSJ for these now, as I have spent hundreds of hours making the correct offset tables, and they are verified to be 100% correct. I could care less about the numbers that someone comes up with on a bench for injectors for the LSJ, because they simply do not work in these cars. Take the Siemens data in your table, and do the 10% fuel test. I got 5.1% change with that data. The data in your worksheet is correct for every other car made, just not the P12 LSJ platform. Something in this PCM OS is weird and uses 50% of the offsets.

    And now that I think about it, the 2006-2012 57# and the 2013 60# GT500 injector would be a very good choice for these motors too, and there is good offset data out there for them already. Greg Banish himself put that data out.


    And as far as the Fuel Injector Connection thing, they hire someone to transpose the offset data for them. They measure the offsets, then have someone chart them out. I really do not know exactly what happened since i have seen that write up. If you buy these injectors, guess who made the offset tables that will be emailed to you from FIC? Me. I made them with hundreds of hours of trial and error, for free.

    I would rather you did not call my work "junk", because it isnt. The simple test on any injector data is simply add 10% more fuel, and see of your actual AFR follows. With my numbers it does exactly. I have done this for the Siemens 60's, Siemens 80's, and the Bosch injectors I have. I am simply trying to save people some headaches and make the LSJ tuning process alot easier for everyone.
    Why did I figure that you wanted to argue about this?

    First; I know you didn't receive offset data. That's why you came to me asking for it.
    Second; get you story straight. Are you or are you not using 2013+ GT500 injectors? Cause you told me you were;
    Quote Originally Posted by lwrs10
    yes i bought them from FIC......but they are not modified. They are the factory 2013 GT500 injectors.
    Third; not knocking your Megasquirt research, you realize that is a 'hack' method, right? If you want the real correct offsets you won't get them from a trial and error on HPT. Sorry to say, but you wasted your time. Those values might work just fine on your car, with your tune. But if someone else comes along and tries to use them, I can guarantee you that they won't work.
    Again, call Yaw Power, get the right offsets, if you want to help everyone out. You might think that his bench work "simply do not work in these cars", but that is simply not the case.

    And as far as the Fuel Injector Connection thing, I'll say it again... they don't calculate squat. They rip off other peoples good work.

    Now... I'm going to assume that no one read that little article I posted. But, the injector section pretty much sums up why you need a proper injector apparatus to measure or calculate the offsets.
    Is your percentage method capable of measure injector offset due to pressure differential? How about voltage? Somehow I sense that you did not run the car at 9 volts to verify that the offsets were correct. How about up at 18 volts?
    Now I ask you, do you think that your driveway, trial and error method is universally complete?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedytec View Post
    Just curious to this "10% offset test procedure".
    If you do this @idle the bigger injectors will be in their non linear PW area with the Adders table etc.
    I'm glad someone is paying attention. Yes, the injectors will still be skewed by the lower knee portion.
    A test bench system will calculate the offsets in the linear portion, then apply the correct the short pulse at the bottom end.
    Last edited by omega_5; 08-12-2013 at 09:13 AM.
    Tyler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedytec View Post
    Just curious to this "10% offset test procedure".
    I understand how that is supposed to work, but did you do this 10% test at various voltages and loads? If you do this @idle the bigger injectors will be in their non linear PW area with the Adders table etc.
    The minimum liner pulsewidth straight from the Bosch spec sheet is .711ms. Idle in the LSJ will be 1.0-1.3ms. So they are not in the non linear region at idle.


    As far as everything else.....I thought at first these were the GT500 injectors, but they are not. Once I had them in my hands I realized they were not.

    The Bosch spec sheet for these are almost the exact same as the GT500 injectors however for voltage offsets, Ford slopes, etc. Knowing that, Greg Banish has released the GM tables for the GT500 injectors. Again, there is good, verified, and correct data put out by a very reputable source for these injectors. All it took was a bit of math to adjust the tables for the LSJ and these injectors.


    Whos car would ever run at 9 volts or 18 volts anyways? And you can still calculate it out with some simple math and knowing the trends with the existing data. If you had to change the 12, 12.5, 13, 13.5, 14, and 14.5 lines exactly 1.3%, it is pretty safe to assume all other lines will change that same amount. Again, if your car is running at 9 volts or 18 volts anyways you have other problems to worry about.


    Instead of tearing apart everything here, is there a way we can work together to a solution instead of against each other? You alone have done so much for the LSJ community in the earlier days, and it would be great to work together on this instead of what we are doing now. I am not tearing apart your LSJ tables you put out, and have figured out how you calculated them, and have found some errors. I would much rather work with you on this.


    *EDIT*

    I just spoke with Tony at Injector Dynamics and discussed what we are talking about. He verified what I did to test the offsets is the correct way to do it. He pointed out that there is no way to verify every single part of the offset table without a flow bench, but what I did will work just fine and should be very very close. So there it is......from the experts being referred to.
    Last edited by lwrs10; 08-12-2013 at 10:27 AM.

  19. #19
    Advanced Tuner omega_5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwrs10 View Post
    He pointed out that there is no way to verify every single part of the offset table without a flow bench
    So put them on their bench get them done right.... from the experts being referred to.

    I'm not quite sure why you're arguing about this. If you want to share the information, get it done by a shop so we know it's universally useable.
    If you only want to show off that you have the data for your own use, then that's fine too. But people should take it with a gain of salt if it hasn't been fully calculated.
    Tyler

  20. #20
    Reading all this with great interest and can see the use of properly measured injectors on a dynamic bench, but what good are those numbers if the LSJ P12 ecu calculates with these in a abnormal way?? I'm not driving a flow bench... ;-)

    Good info here for the LSJ, just 2 different approaches to get accurate verified data. (which is quite rare in the LSJ community...)

    :-)

    @lwrs. Idle is around 1ms with the Siemens 60's, but that's ~850 with a return style referenced system. Non-referenced and decelleration will be lower. Bosch lower limit sound good though..,
    Last edited by Speedytec; 08-13-2013 at 01:04 PM.