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Thread: PE Table Usage

  1. #1
    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    PE Table Usage

    I would like to take a moment and go over PE table usage. Proper usage, improper usage, and different approaches. This is just a culmination of information, my views don't necessarily represent the views of anyone else, tune at your own risk. Note, an AFR of "12.5" is actually an AFR of "12.5 to 1" but is not defined as such everywhere herein.

    The best and (hopefully) most common thing to do before tuning PE is to use a wideband O2 sensor to get actual AFR to match the target AFR.
    There are many guides available on how to go about doing this, with the MAF and/or VE tables depending on setup.

    Alternately narrow bands can be used to tune (only at stoich) when a wideband is not available, however this is not a good idea if the vehicle has anything more than an intake/exhaust. (Even longtube headers can throw off narrowband readings to an extent, they typically slow the switching speed down especially if the placement is poor in the collector)

    A wideband is still the preferred measurement device no matter the application, however it is REQUIRED on the following setups

    Heads and/or Cam
    Stroker
    Fuel Change (C16, E85...)
    Forced Induction
    Nitrous

    If you're tuning those setups without a wideband you're going to have a bad time.

    With stock setups or near stock setups the factory MAF and VE data is sometimes sufficient, if fuel trims are within 5% or so you may be able to use them, but again, if your vehicle has any of the aforementioned modifications don't even bother trying it.
    ________________________
    How to calculate PE:
    This has been covered a lot so I'll be brief.
    PE on Gen III and Gen IV motors can be calculated with the following
    Stoich AFR / PE Ratio = PE AFR
    SO...
    If Stoich AFR = 14.68 and PE ratio = 1.20 then PE AFR = 12.23 (14.68/1.2=12.233333...)
    See, not so bad!
    ________________________
    Now onto the PE table(s)

    The typical thing that seems to be taught is that a PE table should be flat and anything else is very very bad (commonly referred to as PE table "rapeing").
    This is simply is not true. Their is a clear difference between using the PE table to command a different AFR across the RPM range and using the PE table to get the vehicle closer to your target AFR, which is the job of the VE and MAF tables.
    _______________________


    Here we see a BAD PE table, done by a "professional" shop.

    Attachment 42440

    The vehicle is a Twin Turbo Built Motor Corvette Z06 on a 2 Bar Speed Density OS, you're looking at the normal PE table. The idiot tuner not only screwed up the regular PE table, they didn't even use the boost enrichment table which HP tuners provides with the OS! What does this mean?
    Imagine driving part throttle, no boost, the PCM targets a particular AFR; now half throttle, let's say 5 psi, car targets the same AFR; full throttle, 15 psi, the vehicle targets the same AFR.
    So, for example, it doesn't matter if the vehicle is in boost or not, if you're over 25% throttle at 4750 rpm your targeting 11.1 AFR! Far too rich outside of boost. Additionally the erratic change in the table doesn't make for smooth linear power delivery, its not even a sudden jump to another target AFR! It looks like the beginning of the Millennium Force at Cedar Point!

    I'd also like to note that the VE table was off too so the actual AFR at anything other than full boost was richer than 10.0, it pegged the gauge, which is very bad. The vehicle had a dyno sheet of over 960rwhp, imagine what it could have done with a proper tune.
    _______________________


    Here is a STOCK 2006 GTO table,

    Attachment 42441

    Note the high RPM delay and the step down in target AFR as the RPM's climb. This is a technique used in many applications, and by GM in this case, to run the vehicle richer up top to help protect the motor and meet emissions. Under 3000 rpm the vehicle targets an AFR of 13.6, actually a little lean for making the most torque, but an excellent value to ensure relatively good fuel efficiency when going above 48% throttle but staying below 3000 rpm, "spirited" driving.

    _______________________

    Here's the stock PE table and boost enrichment table from one of my own vehicles, a turbocharged 5.3L LM4.
    Below 2800 RPM I target 13.0 for pretty good torque and fuel economy, above that I richen up to about 12.65.
    Fuel isn't added at low RPM where is will never be needed and extra is right before redline to induce a backfire when desired. Redline is set past peak power, so if I don't want the turbo-punishing pop I simply shift where I'm supposed to.
    If at anytime boost comes on, the boost enrichment table takes over. Where the AFR ramps to 11.56, note the extra fuel added if the boost spikes off the MAP sensor range.

    Attachment 42439

    Attachment 42442

    _______________________

    Here's a table from a customer vehicle. A 2001 Camaro SS M6 with an intake, and full exhaust, and hardened push rods.
    A safe 12.5 is targeted throughout the rpm band, except down below 1600 rpm (leaner) and above 6000 rpm (richer).

    Attachment 42447

    This car pulls VERY hard, so hard that it still spun 295's with a weak spark through one cylinder. (A spark plug wire wasn't making full contact with the plug, the spark was arcing across)

    (This is basically the traditional set one value across the rpm range PE table, with just the small changes mentioned.)
    Last edited by VodeAn; 01-23-2014 at 04:11 PM.

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    _______________________

    Here is a tune from a intake exhaust tune 2004 GTO drivetrain swapped into a Miata, where the individual wanted more performance and good gas mileage but had a non functioning wideband, because of this the vehicle isn't too far away from stock in the PE area, but still sees improvements.
    Attachment 42444
    This tune was later checked with a wideband and the AFR was between 12.3 and 12.4, almost dead on in the upper rpm range.
    _______________________


    Now I'd like to touch on theory vs application for a moment.
    From what I understand in theory it is best to target the AFR which creates the best torque until just after peak torque and then lean out slightly as you approach redline.
    And the theory, while correct for making more horsepower and torque, doesn't take into account all sorts of things that happen in the real world application. Someone bounces off the rev limiter, gets bad gas, or wants to be able to dart around at lower rpm's without sacrificing gas mileage. This is why you need to tune for your application.

    I'm not saying you have to tune with less fuel down low and more up top, but in some cases it is desirable.
    Also note that when tuning PE for the first time, after tuning stoich, one single value across the table is best, and target rich while tuning in case your VE/MAF tables are off.

    Other things to remember, the leaner you are the worse knock can be if it occurs. Generally if you air slightly on the rich side you are less likely to experience knock and are better protected for e10 and from bad gas here's a good article as to why. http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php

    __________________________

    edit: Delay and enablers added, scroll down.

    If anyone has anything they'd like to add or critique please do. If you borrow anything here, other than an external link, please credit me.
    Last edited by VodeAn; 01-12-2014 at 11:46 AM.

  3. #3
    Tuner in Training FC3S Murray's Avatar
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    Thank you for the insight and taking the time to explain this to members. Appreciate it!

  4. #4
    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    Thanks for the positive feedback!

    On to delay and enablers...

    There are quite a few values which control when PE comes on in GM PCM's.

    The easiest by far to manipulate at what point PE comes on is the PE Throttle/Pedal table(s).
    Some vehicles have both Hot and Cold tables with a changeable value that is used to switch between them. (Ie. The hot table is used when the ECT is above 285 degrees, while the Cold table is used below that) This feature allows for PE to come on sooner when overheating. Alternatively you can lower the switching value and use this feature as you wish.

    Many gen IV vehicles only have the Hot table accessible in the editor which controls when PE comes on at all temperatures. (I am unclear as to why it is labeled Hot, maybe someone can chime in here) **Answered, see post below**

    Many vehicles from the factory have PE come on too soon at low RPM's, and you can see mileage increases by tweaking the values. **As a personal rule of thumb PE should come on at 50% throttle or sooner above 3500rpm** This prevents a lean condition at high RPMs with a load on the engine.

    "Additionally, there are some applications that do not have a TPS enable table, so to speak, and its simply a single cell."- Bill @ HPT
    If you do not have a table to populate across the RPM range and only have a single value remember that your value will affect PE at any RPM.

    Many PCMs have a requested torque enable switch for PE, setting this value very low allows for the other values to control when PE comes on. Leaving this value at 100% means you might not be able to get into PE without putting the pedal all the way down, rendering the TPS table(s) useless. Depending on other values in the PCM requested torque may be 100% before 100% TPS. Again, I like to set this value really low, so that I control PE with my throttle position and/or MAP.

    Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) can control when PE is enabled or not. MAP on a N/A engine is typically around 95-105kpa at WOT, but you can set this value much lower, controlling PE with throttle position. The hysteresis is the amount of pressure the sensor must fall below the MAP enable value to come out of PE. The factory settings here are fine here on most PCMs.

    _________________________

    Delay & Ramp In

    PE delay is a function which allows PE to come in later if the engine is under a certain RPM, this was added by GM partly for NVH. (You accidently stab the gas for a moment at low RPMs, with the delay you won't go instantly into PE.)

    There are a few parts to PE day that must be covered.

    PE Delay RPM allows you to set the RPM below which PE mode is delayed. (Some vehicles only have this value for adjustment.)
    I like to set delay to 0. As long as the enable values are correct you won't come into PE too early and the vehicle will be more responsive.
    Some factory calibrations have this set to over 5000rpm! Get rid of that, I could see at most having delay below 3000rpm but higher than that and you risk running lean at high RPM with a load on the engine.

    Whether delay is zeroed out or not their is still a ramp in value accessible on many PCMs which controls how fast fuel is added to reach the value in the PE table Enrichment Ramp In. This is best set to 1. Some individuals set it to 1.3 or 1.5 but a value 1.0 provides a near instant AFR delta without a risk of over fueling when PE first comes on. Setting this value to less than .5 or greater than 1.5 is inadvisable.

    On many GM trucks in the factory calibration, the Enrichment Ramp In is set particularly low and the Delay is set very high. Setting Delay to 0 and the Ramp In to 1 provides an instant and dramatic improvement in response when transitioning into PE.
    Last edited by VodeAn; 01-15-2014 at 06:12 PM.

  5. #5
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    No particular reason it was labeled hot in Gen 4 & newer vehicles, we just decided not to spend time on creating a new label and designated it as hot, we could've done it as cold and people would, retrospectively, asked us "wheres the hot table?" lol.

    Additionally there are some applications that do not have a tps enable table, so to speak, and its simply a single cell(I've seen at least a couple of gen 3 operating systems like this).
    It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...

    A wise man once said "google it"

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    Good write up VodeAn

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    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    I still have a little to add, like... pictues to the delay section!
    Last edited by VodeAn; 01-23-2014 at 05:11 PM.

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    Gonna give some of this a try on my truck. Thanks for the write up.

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    Very good write up.

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    My car was tuned by someone else and the TPS % is pretty low, see below.

    Labels 0 400 800 1,200 1,600 2,000 2,400 2,800 3,200 3,600 4,000 4,400 4,800 5,200 5,600 6,000 6,400 6,800 7,200
    TPS 51.8 51.8 51.8 41.4 30.9 20.5 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0


    I have a '03 Z06 with a centri bower. Is this to low? I'm sure I could get a million different combos from people to plug in and I don't want to just plug in numbers that I know little about the outcome of going to high. My PE was also straight across the board after 2k rpm to command 11.5 through the entire power band. Again, I don't know what to much load is with a given AFR on the engine. I realize every engine is different and likes what it likes but is the only way to find about this on a Dyno? How about the drag strip? I have a dyno sheet I can post if it would help.
    Last edited by danieloneil01; 02-12-2014 at 06:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danieloneil01 View Post
    My car was tuned by someone else and the TPS % is pretty low, see below.

    Labels 0 400 800 1,200 1,600 2,000 2,400 2,800 3,200 3,600 4,000 4,400 4,800 5,200 5,600 6,000 6,400 6,800 7,200
    TPS 51.8 51.8 51.8 41.4 30.9 20.5 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0


    I have a '03 Z06 with a centri bower. Is this to low? I'm sure I could get a million different combos from people to plug in and I don't want to just plug in numbers that I know little about the outcome of going to high. My PE was also straight across the board after 2k rpm to command 11.5 through the entire power band. Again, I don't know what to much load is with a given AFR on the engine. I realize every engine is different and likes what it likes but is the only way to find about this on a Dyno? How about the drag strip? I have a dyno sheet I can post if it would help.
    thats low as hell

  12. #12
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    On a boosted vehicle, I set the TPS low & set the Map Enable to 95-100 KPA.

    Russ Kemp

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    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danieloneil01 View Post
    My car was tuned by someone else and the TPS % is pretty low, see below.

    Labels 0 400 800 1,200 1,600 2,000 2,400 2,800 3,200 3,600 4,000 4,400 4,800 5,200 5,600 6,000 6,400 6,800 7,200
    TPS 51.8 51.8 51.8 41.4 30.9 20.5 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0 10.0

    I have a '03 Z06 with a centri bower. Is this to low? I'm sure I could get a million different combos from people to plug in and I don't want to just plug in numbers that I know little about the outcome of going to high. My PE was also straight across the board after 2k rpm to command 11.5 through the entire power band. Again, I don't know what to much load is with a given AFR on the engine. I realize every engine is different and likes what it likes but is the only way to find about this on a Dyno? How about the drag strip? I have a dyno sheet I can post if it would help.
    Okay so at 2400 rpm you're getting into PE at 10% throttle as long as the other enablers are met. 10% at that low of a RPM is too low, you're likely dumping fuel when you don't need to be. Post your tune so we can look at all of the enable parameters.
    Last edited by VodeAn; 02-16-2014 at 01:51 PM.

  14. #14
    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K View Post
    On a boosted vehicle, I set the TPS low & set the Map Enable to 95-100 KPA.

    Russ Kemp
    That's a good way to ensure fueling at low rpm when boost may come on at low tps depending on the setup. The only issue is if you are accelerating but not above 100kpa (boost) you target the same AFR as if you were under boost, but this is where the boost enrichment table in the enhanced OS's come in handy to separate the target afr in and out of boost.
    Last edited by VodeAn; 02-16-2014 at 01:50 PM.

  15. #15
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VodeAn View Post
    That's a good way to ensure fueling at low rpm when boost may come on at low tps depending on the setup. The only issue is if you are accelerating but not above 100kpa (boost) you target the same AFR as if you were under boost, but this is where the boost enrichment table in the enhanced OS's come in handy to separate the target afr in and out of boost.
    Under the Map enable, the AFR will be stoich.

    Russ Kemp

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    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K View Post
    Under the Map enable, the AFR will be stoich.

    Russ Kemp
    Russ,

    From your answer Russ, it sounds like if you set the main PE to trip at say 70 Kpa and 1.15 and the Boost PE enable to 110 kpa (and set the 105 value to less than 1.15 in that table) you won't command the 1.15. Does the Custom OS just ignores the main PE table? Thought that was a way to control the PE across the stoich to NA to Boost ranges.

    Also, while I set the PE flatline for tuning purposes, when MAF/VE tuning is complete, the PE can then be "tweaked" to adjust for power during the wot/track pulls knowing what quantitative changes you are imparting on the tuned AFR value.....not raping.

    Thanks,

    Ed M
    Last edited by mowton; 02-16-2014 at 03:50 PM.
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K View Post
    Under the Map enable, the AFR will be stoich.

    Russ Kemp
    Correct, but sometimes stoich is too lean out of boost, which is why it's so nice to have separate tables in the enhanced OS.

  18. #18
    Senior Tuner Russ K's Avatar
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    The boost PE won't enable UNTIL the TPS & Map values are met. So if you set the boost PE at 1.276 (11.5 AFR) @ 110 KPA and left the PE enable at 64% to 3200 RPM & Map enable at 15 KPA (stock 2002 Camaro). You would be in boost before 64% TPS, yet the vehicle will be in closed loop with very negative fuel trims.

    So that's why I set the PE TPS% very low and raise the PE MAP enable to 95-100 KPA on boosted vehicles. Then you can tune the Boost Enable Map & Eq vs RPM. You could even set the PE TPS% to 0%, since the Map is the only enabler for PE.

    Russ Kemp

  19. #19
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ K View Post
    The boost PE won't enable UNTIL the TPS & Map values are met. So if you set the boost PE at 1.276 (11.5 AFR) @ 110 KPA and left the PE enable at 64% to 3200 RPM & Map enable at 15 KPA (stock 2002 Camaro). You would be in boost before 64% TPS, yet the vehicle will be in closed loop with very negative fuel trims.

    So that's why I set the PE TPS% very low and raise the PE MAP enable to 95-100 KPA on boosted vehicles. Then you can tune the Boost Enable Map & Eq vs RPM. You could even set the PE TPS% to 0%, since the Map is the only enabler for PE.

    Russ Kemp
    Sorry Russ, having a senior moment. So my real question is can you step through the 2 levels of enrichment depending on MAP settings... Stoich to Main PE then Boost PE by setting the MAP of the Main PE to say 65 kPA (PE = 1.15 or NA) and the Boost MAP enable to 110 kPa (PE = 1.22 or FI)?

    Thanks,

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner VodeAn's Avatar
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    Yes.