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Thread: 2.0t ats tuning

  1. #21
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    now seeing some throttle closing and more knock so being an old school engine builder that actually can read a spark plug to tune a carb back in the day I decided to pull one and check it out. Not a lick of knock going on here. The plug is very clean of any sign of it so I also used a bore scope and brought the piston down some to look at it and also no signs of knock at all. What I did find is a very high heat ring on the plug telling me it is too hot and maybe why getting this false knock. I have never heard it now not seeing it. So I did a little research ad found a colder plug so will be trying that this weekend. I was near empty today so I can get 100 octane at the pump so threw 5 gallons at it and just like I thought still got the random knock all over and still closing the throttle this is after around 25 miles of driving so it is running on all or mostly 100 octane gas now. So maybe the trigger is not knock but something else and the kr is just a way the computer is relaying it to the other sensors to pull the throttle or lower the boost. I dont know for this but on my 1992 formula when I put race gas in it the reaction is there and I can run more boost and timing and get a big power increase. So something isnt adding up to still see kr and this is on stock timing tables. So now officially stumped on it.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  2. #22
    Advanced Tuner Boost's Avatar
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    open sesame

    Quote Originally Posted by lt1z350 View Post
    now seeing some throttle closing and more knock so being an old school engine builder that actually can read a spark plug to tune a carb back in the day I decided to pull one and check it out. Not a lick of knock going on here. The plug is very clean of any sign of it so I also used a bore scope and brought the piston down some to look at it and also no signs of knock at all. What I did find is a very high heat ring on the plug telling me it is too hot and maybe why getting this false knock. I have never heard it now not seeing it. So I did a little research ad found a colder plug so will be trying that this weekend. I was near empty today so I can get 100 octane at the pump so threw 5 gallons at it and just like I thought still got the random knock all over and still closing the throttle this is after around 25 miles of driving so it is running on all or mostly 100 octane gas now. So maybe the trigger is not knock but something else and the kr is just a way the computer is relaying it to the other sensors to pull the throttle or lower the boost. I dont know for this but on my 1992 formula when I put race gas in it the reaction is there and I can run more boost and timing and get a big power increase. So something isnt adding up to still see kr and this is on stock timing tables. So now officially stumped on it.
    Sorry to repeat myself bud but maybe you'll see this first. From my e-mail:

    "What is closing the throttle on your car is a table called Knock Airmass (Turbo). You asked why I had it maxed out - to keep from closing the throttle to 50%!!! Try it. Obviously, watch out for big knock the first time the throttle finally opens and isn't tuned for it. But it will survive! The boost control strategy on these is that if the MAF sees what it decides is excessive g/s or air, it will shut the throttle blade and drop boost. You can monitor this with Desired Boost PID."

    As far as the plugs yes I am running 1 heat range colder and gapped to .29 to aviod blowout. Yes the temperatures are out of control which is why I must build a cold-air box and get water/meth injection. I am far from fine tuned but simply adding fuel has not helped. These turbos are overboosted in the high 20s and the IAT flies up causing BOOM.

    Whether false or real knock, I intend to keep the throttle open at all times. I can't have that variable as I am trying to tune. I have gone down the track almost 100 times with the throttle snapping open and closed and sounding like a siren the entire way - to the tune of 9.1 @ 77 mph (1/8th mile). Now that the knock airmass table is maxed I turned the boost down and running rich until dialed in. So I am running just a tick faster but no more drama and tuning can start.

    When the throttle says no, boost reading in the datalog can spike to 46 psi...
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

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  3. #23
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    More specifically it is the engine torque exceeding the Boost Engine TQLimit. This TQ limit is not the TQ limiters in the TM>General>Torque Max maps. I need to figure out what is driving the Boost Engine TQLimit. The calculated air mass is still less then the setting in the Turbocharger Knock Airmass settings. The other thing I would like to get figured out is why the driver pedal demand maxes out at 210kW when I am demanding 250kW in the TM>Engine>Driver Demand Maps. BTW I am not buying the Knock Retard as actual Knock. I see a trend where it coincides with exceeding a threshold. I believe that the ECU uses knock retard along with throttle cut to maintain set thresholds. See below

    Last edited by Twincharged; 04-19-2014 at 09:55 AM.

  4. #24
    Potential Tuner Stew's Avatar
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    I had been struggling with a boost limitation and found it was the turbo base DC table. So it sounds like you're trying to find out what's still limiting you, try raising the values there and see if that get's you closer to your goal.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stew View Post
    I had been struggling with a boost limitation and found it was the turbo base DC table. So it sounds like you're trying to find out what's still limiting you, try raising the values there and see if that get's you closer to your goal.
    How much did you raise them and where? Can you give us a compare picture?

  6. #26
    Potential Tuner Stew's Avatar
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    It didn't take much. Actually I was a little surprised that this is where my issue was, I simply could not get higher than about 212 kPa until adjusting this table, and afterwards I could have probably hit 275 kPa. Once I adjusted the Turbo Base DC table I went back and started over with my tune using real values for things like driver demand and torque mgmt tables rather than putting in max values.

    Here is my OEM Turbo Base DC table


    Here are the changes I made



    I increased the values for 2000 RPM and above by 25% (select and multiply by 1.25) and then went to the cells which had their values increased to over 100 and changed them to 100.

  7. #27
    Advanced Tuner Boost's Avatar
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    I have exceeded 100 in those tables before to successfully maintain high boost at high RPMs also.
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  8. #28
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    There is some great information in this thread. Thanks for sharing guys. Twincharged.. just out of curiosity, why are you logging SAE throttle position instead of ETC pedal Position? Do you find it more accurate? Also would you mind sharing your .cfg file? Thanks again for sharing the info.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jh122877 View Post
    There is some great information in this thread. Thanks for sharing guys. Twincharged.. just out of curiosity, why are you logging SAE throttle position instead of ETC pedal Position? Do you find it more accurate? Also would you mind sharing your .cfg file? Thanks again for sharing the info.
    I was actually logging many different values to see if I can find a trend between them and the issues I was having. I attached my current config file.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #30
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    Word to the wise, don't mess too much with the Wastegate Open Boost map or you will see real knock.

  11. #31
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    I just cranked up my base duty cycle X 1.15 above 2200 RPM and did a data log. Currently all max torque tables are 600 ft.lb, Knock Air Mass is 2.0 at -2 and up, Boost Max is 260kpa, and driver demand is 260kW. Some of the PIDs that I logged was Boost Sensor Pressure, Desired Boost, and Manifold Absolute Pressure SAE. I notices that I would see throttle cut anytime Boost Sensor Pressure exceeded the Boost Max setting of 260kpa. I also noticed that the Manifold Absolute Pressure SAE would not exceed 255kpa. I anticipate that the ECU is cutting throttle to maintain manifold pressure under the Boost Max setting. I am going to leave everything the same and adjust the Base DC table so that Boost Sensor Pressure stays under the Boost Max setting. If all goes well, hopefully the throttle will remain open.

  12. #32
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    Found out last night to zero out the table just below driver demand c driver demand limit I believe. I think it is the amout it will pull throttle back if sees something out of wack. After changing that and nothing else car felt better mid through top end. Even on a kick down at like 60 went straight to power which never happens. Normally takes a whole gear to catch up and start building power. This change with the other great advice above should really help. If someone knows anything else about this table please share but what I get from it the only thing it is doing is limiting power at each given cell and that is what we are trying to avoid.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  13. #33
    Advanced Tuner Boost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lt1z350 View Post
    Found out last night to zero out the table just below driver demand c driver demand limit I believe. I think it is the amout it will pull throttle back if sees something out of wack. After changing that and nothing else car felt better mid through top end. Even on a kick down at like 60 went straight to power which never happens. Normally takes a whole gear to catch up and start building power. This change with the other great advice above should really help. If someone knows anything else about this table please share but what I get from it the only thing it is doing is limiting power at each given cell and that is what we are trying to avoid.
    Anyone care to comment on this? (or clarify please) I don't understand.
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boost View Post
    Anyone care to comment on this? (or clarify please) I don't understand.
    Reduced Power Mode Table? That is the only table I see below map C. And if so, wouldn't that be "Limp" mode?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jh122877 View Post
    Reduced Power Mode Table? That is the only table I see below map C. And if so, wouldn't that be "Limp" mode?
    Just guessing here. Maybe he meant disabling torque shaping. Post 190 of the Cruze 1.4 Tuning? thread Chris stated "increase the throttle response by changing the driver demand tables also disabling torque shaping makes things snappier."

    I haven't messed with it.

  16. #36
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    Stew, is your table from an ATS? Mine is close but clearly different. I don't have 1.15 on my Y axis, but go to 3.0. My x-axis rpms are also different.

  17. #37
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    at first I didnt mess with it as it sounded like a limp mode table but first why would it be in with the other stuff and not with the other engine diag stuff. Then the more I thought about what it is called reduced power mode and looked at what the values were in the cells. When my tahoe went into reduced power from a bad throttle pedal switch the truck wouldnt go at all. My trailblazer had something with the thermostat go bad and showed reduced power on the dash and it also would just barely drive.
    The settings in the table are not low enough to cause that drastic of a change. Now they are enough to draw back on it and limit the power so figured if it is taking power then zero it should have a good affect.
    I did make a change to the prop gain table at the same time I had zeroed out the 2.9 line like the 4.4 was as I had one more time to go test drive was getting really late so wanted to make sure I got a change even though I typically wont change two things like that when looking for new things but did anyway and the car felt much better.
    I didnt mess with it today bt will tomorrow. I will put both back and then do one at a time to find which made the change. I saw good gains in mid range and really good on top end off a kick down where it is typically flat. Now I guess it could be the prop gain that did it as some stuff I have read said that is a table that can really affect boost. I wasnt logging that time so dont know what it changed but seat of the pants it felt better.
    Any one that has been having good luck with it and wouldnt mind sharing a tune to look at that would be great as that is why I started this so we could share tunes and info to all work together to try to get this all figured out. IN the end it would be nice to get it to act like a old school spring loaded waste gate and throttle on a wire. Punch it throttle opens and stays open then boost hits the peak you want it to and then stays around that maybe a lbs or 2 creep as climbs and if sees knock it pulls a little timing. But that is alot to ask for though isnt it? wait we have been there already and now the cars are smarter but yet we cannot get back to where it how it was when cars were dumb and my stupid shoe could actually control what I wanted it to do. Doesnt seem to be a lot to ask for but so far it has been as every little change affects another and normally gets you to somewhere you dont want to be at with it.
    Between us all on here if we do work together we should be able to figure this out as a person wrote this crap to make it work so that means it can be figured out so where is our engineer??? lol If someone knows please share and dont dance around the answer like code name bill does in his answers I have read on the cobalt stuff that just drives me nuts.... thanks to all that have put in time and effort so far to help with this. I am good with transmission I build for a living so anyone that needs help on that end please ask I am always willing to help out.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150

  18. #38
    Potential Tuner Stew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATS4me View Post
    Stew, is your table from an ATS? Mine is close but clearly different. I don't have 1.15 on my Y axis, but go to 3.0. My x-axis rpms are also different.
    No, it's from a 1.4L 6M Chevy Sonic turbo. I was pretty sure the table would have different values than your car but I figured it would be helpful nonetheless. Heck, that table seems to be different on the Cruze and depending on what transmission you have, and even different years Sonic and Cruze, all of which have the same engine!

    Quote Originally Posted by lt1z350 View Post
    ...IN the end it would be nice to get it to act like a old school spring loaded waste gate and throttle on a wire. Punch it throttle opens and stays open then boost hits the peak you want it to and then stays around that maybe a lbs or 2 creep as climbs and if sees knock it pulls a little timing. But that is alot to ask for though isnt it? wait we have been there already and now the cars are smarter but yet we cannot get back to where it how it was when cars were dumb and my stupid shoe could actually control what I wanted it to do. Doesnt seem to be a lot to ask for but so far it has been as every little change affects another and normally gets you to somewhere you dont want to be at with it.

    Between us all on here if we do work together we should be able to figure this out as a person wrote this crap to make it work so that means it can be figured out so where is our engineer??? lol If someone knows please share and dont dance around the answer like code name bill does in his answers I have read on the cobalt stuff that just drives me nuts.... thanks to all that have put in time and effort so far to help with this. I am good with transmission I build for a living so anyone that needs help on that end please ask I am always willing to help out.
    Amen!

  19. #39
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    Yes, disabling torque shaping is the only thing I have close to the description in that location. Will try it. I typically make limp mode equal as all the other tables (A, B, C, equal). I still can't find this reduction table I am supposed to zero out. I was on the dyno until midnight last night and my car was in limp mode and still made the same power (341 torque, breaking up bad on top so only 245 hp). Let's keep this conversation going and try to be scientific, maybe we figure something out. I've done enough guessing on my poor car. Wideband, sniffer, datalog, dyno and still can't get it right..... :s
    '12 Caprice PPV 6.0 L77 - daily transportation
    8.7 @ 84 (1/8 mile) bolt-ons

    '02 Silverado RCSB 5.3 L59 - regularly street driven
    8.2 @ 86 (1/8 mile) stock cam and spray
    8.6 @ 84 (1/8 mile) cam and heads no spray

    Our YOUTUBE CHANNEL featuring the Silverado

  20. #40
    Advanced Tuner lt1z350's Avatar
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    So as I start to drift off last night random thoughts cross my mind. When gm sets up a program I have noticed that when they want something off or not use a table they either max it out or zero it. Seems most of us when not wanting to use parameters in a table we throw out a random high number we feel it cannot reach. Maybe the computer still looks to it as a strategy and even though not hitting it is still part of that map. If a table is at its max or zeroed is it possible the computer no longer will look to use that parameter and eliminate it as a whole and use what is left to make adjustments? Was just thinking if that is possible to go through and totaly eliminate tables and make it a much simpler system for the tune to work with. Less to limit less to draw from to set boost and throttle control. Just thinking out loud to get feedback I guess. Seems a lot of us have tried changing tables to still have undesired affects and haven't heard this as a possible theory yet.
    Pretty pathetic I lay in bed and think about this crap but being a trans mechanic it is normally a customers car I am trying to make better or just get right. So guess better off my own car this time. Lol
    My list of things to try keeps growing. Seems I need a week off work just to figure this out. Starting to miss the simple naturally aspirated heads and cam car to tune. Gm has got us all good with this one so far. So any thoughts even if seem trivial maybe someone else might read it and spark off something to lead down the correct road.
    First 9 second 6th gen lt4 zl1 stock blower SHC SBE boost only.

    2013 cadillac ats 2.0t Big turbo-gone
    2007 tahoe 5.3 lsa blower on 14 lbs boost 6l80e swap 2009 os
    2017 zl1 a10 big gulp/2 inch headers/ 9.55 lower/ e85/bigger hx /103mm tb / Synergy trunk tank and underhood kit/methanol injection with torqbyte controller and prometh pump / Jokerz performance R&D ported stock blower/ lme cnc heads /GP tuning custom cam. So far 9.30@150