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Thread: Australian Ford ignition timing

  1. #1
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    Australian Ford ignition timing

    Given GM have two spark timing tables and moves between the two based on knock sensor activity maintaining optimum timing.
    Does anyone know how the ford timing accomodates this outcome which I assume it can.

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    it only pulls timing if ping occurs but stays on the same spark table

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    Advanced Tuner JETURBO's Avatar
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    Oh dear
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    Quote Originally Posted by JETURBO View Post
    Oh dear
    ?
    Last edited by Yortt; 07-03-2014 at 05:58 PM.

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    Don't worry about Jet mate, he does one word kryptic answers all the time that everyone scratches their head about.

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    From what I understand, their are 2 tables also, borderline knock table and Maximum brake Torque (MBT) table.. The computer picks the lower number between the two for a particular load vs RPM point (generally Bordeline Knock).. Then pulls timing if the knock sensor picks up anything

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    There are also numerous multipliers that can add and take away timing for a given ECT, IAT, Lambda, etc
    Last edited by Peppy_t; 07-03-2014 at 08:24 PM.

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    Advanced Tuner JETURBO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbotrana View Post
    Don't worry about Jet mate, he does one word kryptic answers all the time that everyone scratches their head about.
    Just for you princess
    FG F6 400+RWKW .....10.9 @ 132mph.... FIRST 10sec F6 in SA ( sold )
    DYNO DYNAMICS 1200hp ...... Tuning weapon..... ( sold )
    OFFICIAL JONNY TIG INDUSTRIES SUPPLIER ..... Biggest and lightest intercoolers for B and F falcons
    SUBARU BRZ ......AVO TURBO KIT coming......soon
    VF R8 CLUBSPORT SV...... 340FWKW.....ASE BIG SINGLE KIT .....one day

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    Peppy_t & turbotrana , thanks for the responses.

    While some tuners make the borderline knock table and MBT table the same it would appear this is the wrong thing to do as the MBT table is used for torque calculations also. This leaves the borderline knock table only to modify and for some situations the borderline knock table will be the lowest table when timing is optimally adjusted for 98 and when 95 is then used it is solely dependent on the knock retard from knock sensor activity to control the knock this doesn’t seem correct.

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    Advanced Tuner JETURBO's Avatar
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    Ive never seen BLK and MBT the same, what tuners do this ?

    Do u have an understanding why the MBT is there ?

    The ford timing selection is actually quite decent and when u start mapping a timing table there are key areas u need to leave room in, exactly like ford have done, why do u think you can clean up a timing table and pick up a bunch of hp but in actual fact uve destroyed a best "worst" case senario

    Have a think why....
    FG F6 400+RWKW .....10.9 @ 132mph.... FIRST 10sec F6 in SA ( sold )
    DYNO DYNAMICS 1200hp ...... Tuning weapon..... ( sold )
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    SUBARU BRZ ......AVO TURBO KIT coming......soon
    VF R8 CLUBSPORT SV...... 340FWKW.....ASE BIG SINGLE KIT .....one day

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    Jet, go easy not everyone is as good as you are!

    I know when I was looking at other Ford tuners (not the reputable 1's) but still 90% of them & are pretty sure when I did the VCM course 3 years ago they even said you CAN siamese the table to make sure you get what your aiming for!

    SO I think maybe try & lead people in the right direction rather than shooting them down, I know your trying to do that but be a bit more understanding.

  12. #12
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    The MBT table should be left alone unless there have been modifications that would have actually changed the MBT. Other than raising the MBT table up for higher load values, I seldom touch it.

    Copying the MBT table to the borderline spark table is fine, if you are wanting to run the MBT value, which on a stock car, if you have enough octane to know run into knock, then it will make the best power.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

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    In many ways it appeared the way ford managed the application of fuel and timing was superior to GM which from the comments this may not be the case given what appears to be limited ignition learning control.
    I guess it will become clearer when the scan tool is upgraded and we are able to accurately determine the knock threshold compared to the applied standard timing under actual track/road conditions.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JETURBO View Post
    Ive never seen BLK and MBT the same, what tuners do this ?
    I have downloaded multiple tunes from this forum that have the BLK copied over the MBT. I've always been curious as to why because 50* at idle seems like a very bad idea.

    Also, does anyone know the conditions that the MBT is configured under(@ford) as mixtures will change the timing requirement? I imagine it's configured with "unlimited" octane as it is theoretical MBT.

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    there is a table which changes spark based on AFR

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    Borderline Knock Spark = borderline knock + (IAT Spark Base * Mult) + (ECT Spark Base * Mult) + Lambda Spark Base + (Actual Cam Angle * Variable Cam Spark Base).

    MBT is pretty much the same. You can work it out from what is defined in HPT.

    There is some modifiers for IMRC, combustion noise, EGR etc but these aren't significant in the turbo's.

    The BKT and MBT calc's are run...the lower of the two is referenced and then there is an additional retard for knock sensor activity.

    However the ford system has many Spark Sources. Idle feedback, deceleration etc etc...there's about 18 in total iirc.

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    All the source stuff will be great for the scanner

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    (sung to the tune of "you don't win friends with salad")

    You gotta log with an X-Cal, You gotta log with an X-cal (etc etc etc)
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

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    Advanced Tuner JETURBO's Avatar
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    Iam sick of saying it

    Also grant i started at the bottom of the pond and do not think iam by far anything special but when it comes to reading data and again "JUST READING" i can do that and then make an educated guess to change parts of a calibration and the actually check it ( <- see this part ) to make sure its done what i asked

    Ive had to ask lots of questions along the way, the difference is i try to make a statement with what i suspect is happening supported by what ive logged and then what i was expecting to see

    Asking flat out questions with zero thought put into it shows the asker has done sfa thinking and giving an answer will actually be more harmful than good imho
    FG F6 400+RWKW .....10.9 @ 132mph.... FIRST 10sec F6 in SA ( sold )
    DYNO DYNAMICS 1200hp ...... Tuning weapon..... ( sold )
    OFFICIAL JONNY TIG INDUSTRIES SUPPLIER ..... Biggest and lightest intercoolers for B and F falcons
    SUBARU BRZ ......AVO TURBO KIT coming......soon
    VF R8 CLUBSPORT SV...... 340FWKW.....ASE BIG SINGLE KIT .....one day

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    You can blame people like me for Jet's attitude. When he was starting out and seeking info I would answer his questions with questions tailored to lead him to what he needed to learn.

    He takes the same approach, but unfortunately as he's from Souf Australia it's now quite as polished as us So-fist-a-cated West Aussies
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6