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Thread: Idle dip on small cam 13 Camaro STFT's MAX OUT

  1. #1
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    Idle dip on small cam 13 Camaro STFT's MAX OUT

    Car is a M6 13 Camaro with a 225/230 112lsa camshaft, long tube catless headers and an air intake tube.

    I am sure this is something simple that I must be missing but I am having a tough time tracking down what is going on. Intermittently when you push in the clutch from around 1500-2200 rpm the STFT jumps to 29.7% on both banks (I currently have LT trims disabled). Then as the rpms drop it will start to violently idle surge.

    You can see it happen on frame 6260 in the log I posted. Thanks for any input in advance!

    Camaro weird idle.hpl
    CJTuned, LT headers 225,230 112lsa cam, air intake tube.hpt
    SC Camaro.cfg
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  2. #2
    Tuner blkscooby's Avatar
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    How does the car idle? Your idle airflow values seem somewhat low for that cam.

  3. #3
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    Why do you have LTFT disable?
    If you enable them, are you experiencing the same issue?
    Your idle spark table base is quite low.
    Are you experiencing surging with 725rpm min??

  4. #4
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    Idle is very consistent until it adds 30% more fuel on its own. It falls to about 750rpm and stabilizes there, nice response.

    If you re-enable the LTFT's it will do it as well. It does not learn them into LT's but it will add 29.7 into stft's.

    I have not experienced surging until the 29.7% fuel is added in, then it starts to surge really bad. As you can see it adds the fuel at about 1700 rpm and keeps it there until the throttle is blipped.
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  5. #5
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    Update with the car. I reflashed it back to a new, stock, gm calibration with tis2web. Made minor adjustments to allow it to run and drive and it still does it. Argh! It will do it with long term ft's enabled but will never push the ST adjustment over to Lt's.

    Thoughts anyone.....?
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  6. #6
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    Bump up, any thoughts?
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  7. #7
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    I understand that not everyone is willing to share proprietary information online. It makes sense as there is a lot of time and research involved. If anyone would like to PM me and needs compensation for there assistance that would be good with me. I really need some insight here and have nowhere to turn. Thanks!
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  8. #8
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    looking at it. The tune you posted today is not the "stock" tune you spoke of 2 weeks ago, is it? There are some strange settings in this tune like PE MAP enable is 256kPa!!!!!

    If the stock tune did the same, then it must be mechanical I would think. Will keep looking and report back tomorrow.

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  9. #9
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mowton View Post
    looking at it. The tune you posted today is not the "stock" tune you spoke of 2 weeks ago, is it? There are some strange settings in this tune like PE MAP enable is 256kPa!!!!!

    If the stock tune did the same, then it must be mechanical I would think. Will keep looking and report back tomorrow.

    Ed M
    I have been making a ton of changes to the tune and the one I posted had PE disabled to see if it would change anything (it didn't). Here is the current tune that is in the car which is based off a stock OS.

    If you push the car into OL the issues goes away since it cannot do anything about STFT's and it drives perfect. When it starts adding fuel on decel it will idle dip.

    Another interesting thing I found is that if you cold start it and drive right away it will not do it until you are about 7 minutes into your drive. After about 20 minutes it will stop doing it as well and will not do it again until the next drive cycle.

    Here is the current tune file:CJTuned, LT headers 225,230 112lsa cam, air intake tube, newest OS,.hpt
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  10. #10
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    I am offering advise based on the previous log you posted which I believe is not from the tune file you just posted so there may be differences. Could you add a log based on the current tune please?

    See that the IPW is very low so the pcm seems to be going into DFCO...what is weird is the NB o2 senors are showing rich. After you depress the clutch, the rpms reduce and fall but keep falling until you then tap the accelerator to try and stop the stall, correct? I do not believe the pcm is adding fuel, I believe it may need more. Seems the Min Air is about what I would expect. Add .5 grams to the idle and surround MAF cells to see if it helps in the stall.

    If the MAF doesn't help, you might try reducing the VE at 800 by say 30%, the 1000 by 20% and the 1200 by 10% as a try as well to compensate for the cams inefficiency ay lower rpms.

    Also in the DFCO table add.05 g/cyl to the CYLAIR enable and disable tables.

    Thanks

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  11. #11
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    After you depress the clutch, the rpms reduce and fall but keep falling until you then tap the accelerator to try and stop the stall, correct?

    ^^This is correct, however it will also do it when cruising say at 1800 rpm, in gear. Let off the gas and it will nearly immediately jump to 29.7. I can get the throttle body to open to about 19% and feel the car running rough (very rich). Then the fuel trims jump back in line and the car runs good.

    When the car is in OL it runs perfect!

    I will drive it again in the next hour and post up a couple of logs that correspond with the current tune file.

    Update:
    Drove the car again, attached is a new log and some screenshots.
    I am convinced this is a corrupt tune file or it is trying to run a self test that it shouldn't be because I screwed something up (in the tune)
    I have tried enabling and disabling a series of items including DFCO, allowing rear O2's to code, Enabling COT, Enable/Disable cat and o2 tests with NO change.

    Here is the first screenshot, notice the timing drop and notes present on the image. This is coasting at a steady 2k rpm. Issues starts at 5920 in the attached log.

    Capture.PNG

    Current tune, config and scan below:
    Camaro fuel trims.hpl
    CJTuned, LT headers 225,230 112lsa cam, air intake tube, newest OS,.hpt
    E38 M6.cfg
    Last edited by 01 MidMet WS6; 08-01-2014 at 03:21 PM.
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  12. #12
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    you could try to lower your Idle RPM Limits -> Idle Speed Min than the target Idle RPM,

    have you done some modification in the Electronic Throttle under the airflow tab if you done I would advise to put it as stock.

  13. #13
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shamanizim View Post
    you could try to lower your Idle RPM Limits -> Idle Speed Min than the target Idle RPM,

    have you done some modification in the Electronic Throttle under the airflow tab if you done I would advise to put it as stock.
    All ETC tables are stock, I have tried to set it up below in the first tune I posted it is that way and it did not help.
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  14. #14
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    well I have tried to do some changesto the file could you please use this file just copy everything over your file and then flash it, it should be ok.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #15
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Again, instead of making wholesale changes, please try and add .05 to DFCO cylair enable and disable and Throttle TPS enable and disable per above to your latest file that the log represents. Also based on the cam, you may need to perform the VE reductions I recommended above.

    Thanks

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  16. #16
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shamanizim View Post
    you could try to lower your Idle RPM Limits -> Idle Speed Min than the target Idle RPM,

    have you done some modification in the Electronic Throttle under the airflow tab if you done I would advise to put it as stock.
    Your idle settings are considerably to low with speed and airflow. Keep in mind although this is an idle dip discussion the heart of the problem is why the trims are jumping up.
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  17. #17
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    I made changes to the VE and changed the airflow amount for DFCO.

    Just a heads up it will go into dfco normally but as soon as you push int the clutch it jumps up to 29.7%

    As far is it needing more fuel when it is in OL it runs great with an error amount of 1-2% all the time. For that reason I did not make changes to the MAF.

    Unfortunately I will not see the vehicle again until this Wednesday, I will post results as soon as they are available. Thanks all!
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  18. #18
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    171F ect seems very low. You might have strange behaviour.
    Please check if you experience it even with 185 and above

  19. #19
    Tuner 01 MidMet WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ingsteve View Post
    171F ect seems very low. You might have strange behaviour.
    Please check if you experience it even with 185 and above
    Good catch on that, the vehicle was still cold. It will still do it at 192-196f. that they normally run.
    01 WS6-M6, PRC Stage 2.5 5.3's, MS4, Kooks 1 3/4", custom built full true duals w/ X-pipe, SLP lid, tuned via HPTuners

  20. #20
    This is a HP tuners issues on a lot of 2013-2017 gen iv vehicles. As soon as you write a tune with HP tuners, it currupts the ecm. I have had 20+ vehicles do it and nothing I have found fixed the issue. Nothing is commanding the fuel but stft will Max out, ltft will stay static and it will load up with fuel. Does not matter if DFCO is on or off. If I had to guess, HP Tuners has something wrong with EVAP mapping and something gets changed after writing any kind of calibration back to the car.