99 LS1 TA Surging

[LazyEyeMcFly]

Hey Guys,
I Replaced my dying battery and Alternator to fix some voltage issues but am still surging only after it throws the codes
P0133
P1133
P1153
After idling for a while it will straighten itself out

I did notice that every time it surges the volts tick slightly lower with the surge.

Please look at this log and tell me what you see.. I don't know how to read O2 sensor behavior and Fuel trims etc..
I also attached my current tune. Maybe something wrong in there???

Please Help!

TIA

[93camaro_zzz]

I think your idle needs to be tuned.

[LazyEyeMcFly]

Please look at these runs from just now. Why are my O2 sensors not zig zagging uniformly like they used to? Is that the indication of the "insufficient" switching since the reading doesn't change properly?

[4horseman]

Please look at these runs from just now. Why are my O2 sensors not zig zagging uniformly like they used to? Is that the indication of the "insufficient" switching since the reading doesn't change properly?

when a o2 sensor does not oscillate it is in an open loop state. "When no signal is received from the O2 sensor, as is the case when a cold engine is first started (or the 02 sensor fails), the computer orders a fixed (unchanging) rich fuel mixture. This is referred to as "open loop" operation because no input is used from the O2 sensor to regulate the fuel mixture. If the engine fails to go into closed loop when the O2 sensor reaches operating temperature, or drops out of closed loop because the O2 sensor's signal is lost, the engine will run too rich causing an increase in fuel consumption and emissions. A bad coolant sensor can also prevent the system from going into closed loop because the computer also considers engine coolant temperature when deciding whether or not to go into closed loop."

Your logs do indicate a rich condition. It can be a coolant sensor or maf sensor going bad.

The computer takes its cues from the O2 sensor and responds by changing the fuel mixture. This produces a corresponding change in the O2 sensor reading. This is referred to as "closed loop" operation because the computer is using the O2 sensor's input to regulate the fuel mixture. The result is a constant flip-flop back and forth from rich to lean which allows the catalytic converter to operate at peak efficiency while keeping the average overall fuel mixture in proper balance to minimize emissions. It's a complicated setup but it works.
When your car is in closed loop you get oscillation."

You stated that you changed your battery and alternator. There could have been a short/ surge that bugled one or more of your sensors/connectors. Your o2 voltages should be around .890 -.910 mv but you are way under. Disconnect the Maf sensor to force the car into VE and run your car on a log and see if the o2 oscillate. If they do your MAF is shot. If not I would check coolant sensor as temperature relates directly to your fuel mix in forcing the pcm deciding to go into closed or open loop as I stated before.

[4horseman]

Hey Guys,
I Replaced my dying battery and Alternator to fix some voltage issues but am still surging only after it throws the codes
P0133
P1133
P1153
After idling for a while it will straighten itself out

I did notice that every time it surges the volts tick slightly lower with the surge.

Please look at this log and tell me what you see.. I don't know how to read O2 sensor behavior and Fuel trims etc..
I also attached my current tune. Maybe something wrong in there???

Please Help!

TIA

Here is a good trouble shooting guide for those codes: http://ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagno...153-codes.html

[4horseman]

A code P0133 may mean that one or more of the following has happened: The oxygen sensor is faulty The wiring to the sensor is broken / frayed There is an exhaust leak

Read more at: http://www.obd-codes.com/p0133

[LazyEyeMcFly]

Thank You for the great info!

I realized recently that this all started soon after i also sealed my leaking collectors with High Temp Red RTV. It was not sensor safe. Could it be that cut and dry? Did I just foul them up? If that is the case then will it happen again with new O2 sensors or is the silicone cured or dried up enough where it will not off-gas its fumes?

[4horseman]

Thank You for the great info!

I realized recently that this all started soon after i also sealed my leaking collectors with High Temp Red RTV. It was not sensor safe. Could it be that cut and dry? Did I just foul them up? If that is the case then will it happen again with new O2 sensors or is the silicone cured or dried up enough where it will not off-gas its fumes?

Use only anti seize o2 sensors threads, and I use only the gasket and small amount of sensor safe sealant on my collectors !!! Just use high quality gaskets, don't go cheap.

Any silicone will foul o2 sensors.. These type of sealers out-gas small amounts of silicone when they cure.However it doesn't foul them all the time but it can if enough off gassing occurs. If you use one of these sealers on an oil pan, exhaust manifold or valve cover gasket, the silicone vapor will be sucked into the crankcase ventilation system and then into the intake manifold. As a result, the oxygen sensor, once contaminated with Silicone will be inoperative within a day or two. Likewise, do not use Silicone-based lubricants anywhere under the hood, or anywhere forward of the firewall. However there are some labeled sensor safe such as permatex rtv blue. I only use Red Rtv on differential o-ring seals/ drive train applications etc.

However you can try like you said to get new o2 sensors and hope the gasket sealer is cured so that it wont emit fumes , you already have to get new o2 as it is most likely anyways. While your down there check all wiring for frays as well.

If this doesn't work change out to new gasket , sensor safe sealant and re-install new o2 sensors. If the problem persists the culprit is likely , an exhaust leak or failing MAF

[4horseman]

Oh and by the way an exhaust leak will cause these same problems . Make sure you tightened everything and don't have anymore exhaust leaking somewhere else especially at the manifold. Dont let your car run rich too long my friend or your catalytic converters will fry, if you are running with cats that is.....Take care

[Russ K]

Those codes are normal when long tube headers are installed. Set the P0133, P0153, P1133 and P1153 to no error reported and uncheck the SES box. When these codes set, the car will go into open loop.

Russ Kemp

[4horseman]

Those codes are normal when long tube headers are installed. Set the P0133, P0153, P1133 and P1153 to no error reported and uncheck the SES box. When these codes set, the car will go into open loop.

Russ Kemp

Well that makes sense !! He didn't mention he has long tube headers only that these codes began to appear after a battery/alternator change. LazyEyeMcFly Russ K is one of the best on the boards. If you changed from factory exhaust to headers he is 100% correct. Go into Engine section and you will see the codes for o2 banks to disable error reporting in the DTC section like he said. If you have factory exhaust still and where changing out gasket for an exhaust leak that another issue.

[LazyEyeMcFly]

Ok Folks, here are some details that you should know
- I do have Kooks Long Tubes, No Cats, No leaks at Manifolds- i have had them for about 2 years now without these nuisance codes
- My Header collectors are just 3" round male ends with no flanges. The fit into expanded (female) 3" and continue into the rest of my custom exhaust. Offset sized stainless band clamps seal those joint and it is just at that outer edge where the pipes join that i put the red RTV. So it would be unlikely or minimal fumes getting inside.
- My Car was MAF tuned by Ben(email) and has been flying with no issues until recently.
-The wires are in perfect condition, i've gone through every possible ground that i could find, I've pulled the long Harness Connectors at the PCM and inspected and all is super clean and in great shape.

I just recorded a log with MAF unplugged from cold start up all the way to driving, warming up and some nice hard runs. Its about 11 min long so bring popcorn. Please have a look and let me know what you see. The O2s do oscillate more now but still not as smooth and uniform as last years logs.

I will take your advice and tune out the O2 codes mentioned

Thank You for the help and I appreciate you taking another look at the new attachment.
John

[4horseman]

Ok Folks, here are some details that you should know
- I do have Kooks Long Tubes, No Cats, No leaks at Manifolds- i have had them for about 2 years now without these nuisance codes
- My Header collectors are just 3" round male ends with no flanges. The fit into expanded (female) 3" and continue into the rest of my custom exhaust. Offset sized stainless band clamps seal those joint and it is just at that outer edge where the pipes join that i put the red RTV. So it would be unlikely or minimal fumes getting inside.
- My Car was MAF tuned by Ben(email) and has been flying with no issues until recently.
-The wires are in perfect condition, i've gone through every possible ground that i could find, I've pulled the long Harness Connectors at the PCM and inspected and all is super clean and in great shape.

I just recorded a log with MAF unplugged from cold start up all the way to driving, warming up and some nice hard runs. Its about 11 min long so bring popcorn. Please have a look and let me know what you see. The O2s do oscillate more now but still not as smooth and uniform as last years logs.

I will take your advice and tune out the O2 codes mentioned

Thank You for the help and I appreciate you taking another look at the new attachment.
John

Ok Get some MAF cleaner and gently clean the maf and screen. Dont touch the filaments!!! Take some throttle body cleaner and clean the throttle body.
disable the error reporting on rear o2 all of them (bank 2)so the car will go into closed loop at partial throttle. reconnect the MAF. Drive the car regularly not at WOT, and log it. If you have oscillation all is well. Still, dont understand why all of a sudden you get error codes when you have the same hardware and same software tune but we will see.

[4horseman]

Can you post your tune? I still dont see why whoever did your tune didnt disable your bank 2 o2 sensors knowing you have a header system and no cats.

[LazyEyeMcFly]

The logs i put up here originally are after i just cleaned my MAF with MAF spray ( descreened ) and i also had just cleaned out my throttle body and IAC which was gunky.

Here is my tune with freshly deleted O2 codes P01333, P0153, P1133, P1153

FYI if my MAF is bad i do have an aftermarket one in the Garage. Its a Granatelli 350112-C that is supposed to be ideal for Cold Air induction. I was told that this particular one is hard to tune so i left it off the car after getting lean codes (before email tune) I have more of a Ram Air setup with my TA WS6 Hood baffles cut out.

Thanks!

I will go take a cruise soon with MAF hooked back up. Maybe with those codes deleted things will start working or at least it will go into closed loop now.

[4horseman]

Looks good. I read on another thread that even if you dont have cats leave the overtemp enabled . ENGINE, FUEL, COT,leancruise. enable. Cant remember why but its in the record. Also Russ k has an awesome tranny tune involving shift pressures. Really firmed up my 1-2 and 2-3 shifts if you would like to try it.I copied it from another c5 corvette member. You can always tweak to your liking . Its Firm but not too harsh, more like a quicker run through the gears. Low speed and high speed VSS is also set considerably lower than your stock setting of 256.

[LazyEyeMcFly]

Now i got P1134 and P1154 codes?!

attached are a few logs. One is right after the deletes were made and One was when the new codes popped up.

[4horseman]

Now i got P1134 and P1154 codes?!

attached are a few logs. One is right after the deletes were made and One was when the new codes popped up.

Here is the info on those two codes http://www.gearchatter.com/viewpost13039.php and http://www.hotrodlane.cc/New%20LT%20...Sensor%201.htm .

As far as your first log goes you are getting some oscillation . Are you getting the surge during acceleration anymore or is that fixed now? Just FYI those codes are usually indicative of fuel contamination,improper use of rtv or silicone sealant or exhaust leak when they come on together. A couple of old LS1 forums said the When P0133 and P0154 set it will make it go into in open loop(no oscillation)

Clear the codes and let the car warm up as normal and see if they appear again. If yes go through the trouble shooting guide to see if it corrects the problem for setting the codes.According to the flow chart if P1134 and P1154 comes on together you must first clear up one of these three conditions prior to replacing the o2 sensor, 1) fuel contamination 2) use of improper rtv sealant 3) engine oil/ coolant consumption

Just Fyi, some corvette forum members who had this combination of codes set fixed the problem by changing out the o2 sensors which where obviously contaminated by use of improper rtv sealants when changing to or repairing headers. I would start there because you didnt start having this issue until you repaired your exhaust and this seems pretty common.

Hopefully Russ or Dstek will chime in because they are much more knowledgeable on these issues than I am. Could be that you simply missed one of the codes to disable for error reporting. Just seems to coincidental that after you used non sensor safe gasket maker/sealant that now you are having all these problems.

[Russ K]

Now i got P1134 and P1154 codes?!

attached are a few logs. One is right after the deletes were made and One was when the new codes popped up.

Ok, I would first return the O2 rich/lean vs airflow tables to stock. And now you need to also set the P1134 & P1154 codes to no error reported.

But it looks like your O2's are still not switching and will need to be replaced.

Russ Kemp

[blownbluez06]

I don't have time to read everything above to see if you've verified your 02 wires aren't cooking on your headers, so I'll mention that I've seen plenty of header installs where the 02 wires didn't get proper attention and got burned through.