Fuel curve BFXR6T

[mycomputeratesme]

I know im going to get grief for asking but anyway have searched and not come up with answers so here
goes.
First time playing with ford tuning so be easy. What table/tables should be altered to alter fueling at a particular point?
Rundown of mods
Exhaust
Wastegate valve
.7 AR comp housing
8 psi boost
Fuel pump

Any help appreciated thanks.

[IH8TOADS]

I've covered speed density previously I'm pretty sure. Maybe someone point to the post/s. I don't have time. Some Focus's run a t-MAP and slope/offset SD model so search those forums also for a quick reference. Focus fanatics etc. Injector Dynamics has an article where Paul calculates the VE...that's a good read.

Way back when the famous Jerry produced a Speed Density spreadsheet for SCT Tuners to calculate airflow correction. This was a helpful tool especially if you have a dyno, the correct injector calibration, time and an engine that will withstand a fair amount of abuse.

[JETURBO]

Mate how much do you know "theory" wize ?

A question like you asked is so open ended it suggests you need to read first !

[DarrylC]

I know im going to get grief for asking but anyway have searched and not come up with answers so here
goes.
First time playing with ford tuning so be easy. What table/tables should be altered to alter fueling at a particular point?
Rundown of mods
Exhaust
Wastegate valve
.7 AR comp housing
8 psi boost
Fuel pump

Any help appreciated thanks.

In HP Tuners the tables you will need are "MAP per Airmass (High Res)" and "MAP at Zero Airmass (High Res)". Do not use the other versions of these as they do not work and you will waste a lot of time trying to figure out what is wrong (been there done that)

As Jet said how you proceed depends on your knowledge. Toads mentioned that there is a Speed Density discussion on this forum but it is not all that helpful if you don't understand the basics. As he mentioned it is best to start off with the injector dynamics VE page:

http://wpdev.injectordynamics.com/ar.../shelby-gt500/

Look for the sexy maths teacher a fair way down (dated 8-12-2012)

I was thinking of writing up a speed density one day detailing how it works and all the fun stuff you can get out of it (horsepower, Load, injector pulse widths/duty cycles, ...)

Darryl.

[timwds]

I was thinking of writing up a speed density one day detailing how it works and all the fun stuff you can get out of it (horsepower, Load, injector pulse widths/duty cycles, ...)

Please do, it would be nice to have a Falcon specific article for new people to reference. Would be super awesome!

[mycomputeratesme]

Thanks for the reply, yeah read that several times in the past. Read Thru the Australian tuning thread but most people seemed on the wrong track.

[mycomputeratesme]

I've covered speed density previously I'm pretty sure. Maybe someone point to the post/s. I don't have time. Some Focus's run a t-MAP and slope/offset SD model so search those forums also for a quick reference. Focus fanatics etc. Injector Dynamics has an article where Paul calculates the VE...that's a good read.

Way back when the famous Jerry produced a Speed Density spreadsheet for SCT Tuners to calculate airflow correction. This was a helpful tool especially if you have a dyno, the correct injector calibration, time and an engine that will withstand a fair amount of abuse.

Thanks for the reply, yeah read that several times in the past. Read Thru the Australian tuning thread but most people seemed on the wrong track.

[mycomputeratesme]

Mate how much do you know "theory" wize ?

A question like you asked is so open ended it suggests you need to read first !

Quite a bit I would like to think, few bits of the puzzle left that reading couldn't clarify, enough reading to expect an answer like that from you! But all good I figured it out.

[mycomputeratesme]

In HP Tuners the tables you will need are "MAP per Airmass (High Res)" and "MAP at Zero Airmass (High Res)". Do not use the other versions of these as they do not work and you will waste a lot of time trying to figure out what is wrong (been there done that)

As Jet said how you proceed depends on your knowledge. Toads mentioned that there is a Speed Density discussion on this forum but it is not all that helpful if you don't understand the basics. As he mentioned it is best to start off with the injector dynamics VE page:

http://wpdev.injectordynamics.com/ar.../shelby-gt500/

Look for the sexy maths teacher a fair way down (dated 8-12-2012)

I was thinking of writing up a speed density one day detailing how it works and all the fun stuff you can get out of it (horsepower, Load, injector pulse widths/duty cycles, ...)

Darryl.

Thanks Darryl, wish I checked back last week but figured it out with some trial and error!
What threw me was the basic mods I had done, I didn't think I would be out of injector so early at 7.5 psi and lack of basic logging made it harder to see.
Yeah I have read that article several times in the past and as a refresher but still wasn't clear what I should have altered first (as far as the fuel went)
Thanks again.

[DarrylC]

Thanks Darryl, wish I checked back last week but figured it out with some trial and error!
What threw me was the basic mods I had done, I didn't think I would be out of injector so early at 7.5 psi and lack of basic logging made it harder to see.
Yeah I have read that article several times in the past and as a refresher but still wasn't clear what I should have altered first (as far as the fuel went)
Thanks again.

I wrote a simulator so that I could check out when my injectors ran out. I originally thought I had it wrong because tuners kept reporting that they were running 12lb of boost on standard injectors yet my program told me about 1/2 of that at higher rpm. Seems like you have found this out already with 7.5psi.

I am about 1/2 way through the speed density write up so in the next couple of days.

Be very careful replacing injectors. Get them with correct calibration data. It is very difficult to get things correct without this data. I used Bosch 968 injectors and they do not have calibration data, causes all kinds of fuelling issues and odd fuel trims. The go seems to be the Bosch 1000cc injectors from either KPM or ID with the calibration data. Car will have the same fuel economy, great idle and correct fuelling out to redline. I wish I could use them but they are too big for my LPG injectors but thats another story

[JETURBO]

Well clearly the understanding is limited if you cant even fall back on logging !!

Psi is not the limiting factor to max D/C on injectors, have a think why we can do 10+ psi when and where on stock injectors ......

[mycomputeratesme]

I wrote a simulator so that I could check out when my injectors ran out. I originally thought I had it wrong because tuners kept reporting that they were running 12lb of boost on standard injectors yet my program told me about 1/2 of that at higher rpm. Seems like you have found this out already with 7.5psi.

I am about 1/2 way through the speed density write up so in the next couple of days.

Be very careful replacing injectors. Get them with correct calibration data. It is very difficult to get things correct without this data. I used Bosch 968 injectors and they do not have calibration data, causes all kinds of fuelling issues and odd fuel trims. The go seems to be the Bosch 1000cc injectors from either KPM or ID with the calibration data. Car will have the same fuel economy, great idle and correct fuelling out to redline. I wish I could use them but they are too big for my LPG injectors but thats another story

Yes very misleading some of the power claims made.
That will help a lot of people out and will help the brand for sure.

Thanks I am well aware of the importance of correct injector data and have fitted ID 1000s. Ran it up and must have a decimal point out somewhere or something as its slightly out. Seems bang on at light to medium load 1 to 2 % correction
but about 8% rich in open loop but nice flat AFRs.

LPG sounds interesting. Have done a piggy back LPG controller off an aftermarket ecu on a turbo patrol, worked really well.
Thanks again for the input.

[mycomputeratesme]

Well clearly the understanding is limited if you cant even fall back on logging !!

Psi is not the limiting factor to max D/C on injectors, have a think why we can do 10+ psi when and where on stock injectors ......

If you could point me in the direction of the HP scanner PIDs that would be great, all I got was no data.

For sure boost isn't the limiting factor on power output, power production is.
Maybe there is a limit that can be altered for maximum pulse width but not aware of it.

[JETURBO]

If by now your still relying on the hp scanner you have bigger issues at hand

Read my sig !

There is infact a fair amount of "power production" associated with the size of stock squirters its how you start and finish with what you call acceptable amount of target afr at the end

[Peppy_t]

And here I was thinking that the injector slopes and base fuel table are used to achieve the correct fueling? To be honest it's pretty good and consistant, with quite a list of mods? Am I doing it the wrong way

[JETURBO]

Here ill show some info for the greater good, remember without data you have nothing but hopes and dreams

BA F6 manual ran 200rwkw stock

We installed a basic intake that the owner supplied and a walbro intank we installed and a major service to get it ready for tuning, he wanted the stock parts to go as far as they could and thats fine if thats what they want, already knew roughly what target psi we were going to dial in and as long as the pump could keep up and IDC stayed in a lower than 95% for this combo it was fine by me. Yes we pushed it further to het the "magical" number and to see where injector ran out ( and other factors ) then you bring it back and do a "few back to backs" on the dyno quick to make sure its on the realm of "safe"

Start 200rwkw 11/11.5afr



Finish 248rwkw 12.2afr ........
As u can see the back to back runs



And heres boost



Then after a good cool down we go for the "print out number"



Ive given a bunch of info off these graphs have a look and a think and see how we managed to gain 54rwkw over 90 engine hp off a "tune only" situation

Biggest part is having the car mechanically A1 to start with !

All done on hp tuners in about 4hrs

[JETURBO]

Remember as a hard fast rule keeping afr/lambda to a closer 11.8/12.0 or 0.8 is more ideal but each situation requires a outlook the tuner needs to be happy with

This car came in and was tuned somewhere else but we would not even spin it full turn for obvious reasons, you can see when afr climbs rapid its 9/10 a mechanical issue and this car was out of pump bad !and this is why you need hardware and software to see this stuff before its to late, also look at the small power levels as it is going lean



Wanna know how lean it went ? This was found in the glove box after, you got to ask your self who is still on the loud pedal at this afr :/

[DarrylC]

Well clearly the understanding is limited if you cant even fall back on logging !!

Psi is not the limiting factor to max D/C on injectors, have a think why we can do 10+ psi when and where on stock injectors ......

Agree you need to log with SCT Livelink, when HP tuners gets there new scanner...

I did a very conservative estimate with a 90% duty cycle and held lambda to 0.79. Also my program is conservative and the fiugures I calculate are higher than LiveLink (DC 90% calculated and SCT show 86%) so was using as a ball park for selecting injectors and then checking with SCT.

Would be interested in what your results were JET, very interested.

EDIT:
Woops, sorry Jet after I posted this it showed me your posts. Thank you, will digest

[mycomputeratesme]

If by now your still relying on the hp scanner you have bigger issues at hand

Read my sig !

There is infact a fair amount of "power production" associated with the size of stock squirters its how you start and finish with what you call acceptable amount of target afr at the end

I am well aware of the current limitations of the scanner at present and trust that things are about to improve with the development that has been going on at HP.

Sorry but I am not happy at 12.7 AFRs. You go for it though.

[JETURBO]

Remember very few tuners will show the data you want to see and sometimes for obvious reasons i dont mind ever showing "facts" because being RIGHT all the time makes you look silly when u get it wrong and let me say i spent alot of money getting it wrong before i could get it right

Tuning is a funny thing and everyone has their own take on whats acceptable and whats not but when you have other peoples vehicles in your hands you need to be confident in what you have done and a valid reason why

Now this young lad would of gone all the way to 300rwkw off 110% IDC at 16.0afr but thats not fair to use his lack of understanding to get a result and the lean-ish afr at the end of his run i was ok with to be honest, but we did have him back
And installed 60lb dekas and this was the result of now a intake,pump,injectors and hi flow cat at 11.5psi and 11.8afr

Yeh it had more in it but the shitty little f6 cooler was not coping with back to back runs any higher than this psi and rwkw wise