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Thread: Speed Density on the BA/BF Australian Ford Turbo 6

  1. #41
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    I run my plenum volume at the nizzer recomended 5.5ltrs. Reduces the rich tip in when cracking the throttle wide open from a standing start.

    My rough understanding it the larger plenum takes longer to "fill" hence with stock tps based open loop fuelling the car goes to WOT lambda before there is sufficient air hence the momentary rich condition.

    With the ol delay and ramp maxed, good scaling (not hard with the ID's) and the plenum volume set to 5.5 I can crack the throttle wide open and lambda overshoots be .02/.03 max. Im happy to put that down to tolerances in my wideband.
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

  2. #42
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    Luke thanks for the info. I might try that actually as the last round of mods I've done was the FG intake manifold, Cat delete, heavier actuator (19psi) and the ID1300s. Won't be afraid to push well into the 500rwkw mark

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrylC View Post
    hiddeous,
    I was just reading about your excellent spreadsheet for tackling the ZF shift points

    Darryl.
    Hi, Very nicely written Darryl , keep up the great work and it is awesome to see people like yourself and other sharing information & knowledge and helping willingly.

    By the way Darryl where about in Melb are you ?

    Hiddeous is also a great contributor amongst the many great characters on the forum also but i can't find his " excellent spreadsheet for tackling the ZF shift points " post did a search and read all his other post and then just gave up OOPS LOL my back side hurts from sitting, Would like to read it.

    If someone knows where this " hiddeous , excellent spreadsheet for tackling the ZF shift points " post is can you post a link or PM me a link would be greatly appreciated , Thanks

    cheers

  4. #44
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    pge 10, post 195 of the zf thread. I think we need the 2.25 scanner before we know what table relates to what gear.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbotrana View Post
    pge 10, post 195 of the zf thread. I think we need the 2.25 scanner before we know what table relates to what gear.
    Hi Turbotrana , Thank you for the reply, I have V2.25 already found the link you mention and once again thankyou. Was in that section but just gave up reading some where arond page7 LOL will continue on.

    Thread: ZF 6HP26 TCM - Now Supported in 2.25 Beta
    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...25-Beta/page10

    Cheers

  6. #46
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    weight of air in 1 (cubic foot) = 0.0807 lbs ( Air_density ????? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric@HPTuners View Post
    I just read the PDFs, and I would like thank you again for doing this. Excellent job.

    Engine Displacement is the dry air mass to displace the volume of one cylinder. Ford uses to different conditions, depending if the car is N/A or Boosted. The N/A cars use 60°F and 29.95 inHG BP, the Boosted cars use 100°F and 29.95 inHG BP.
    Hi Eric@HPTuners,

    Engine Displacement is the dry air mass to displace the volume of one cylinder.
    Ford uses to different conditions, depending if the car is N/A or Boosted.

    Conditions_1 - The N/A cars use 60°F and 29.95 inHG BP,
    Conditions_2 - The Boosted cars use 100°F and 29.95 inHG BP.

    Question_1 , What does BP stand for at the end of all the conditions ? is this a standard it reverts back to as i have tried to work what BP means and haven't worked it out.

    Question_2 , What value do you have for air density at those settings that affects cylinder fill ?

    My calculations are base on air density Wikipedia encyclopedia and compared to your N/A 60°F@29.95 inHG BP, and Boosted 100°F@29.95 inHG BP , one cylinder fill will vary depending what part of the world one lives? This is just bugging me and a issue for me as my calculations are anything between 2.5% to 3% lower &/or higher values. I tried these calculation for the Australian ford engines GT335 coyote(USA) V8 5lt bore 92.2mm and stroke 92.7mm , one cylinder volume I calculated is 0.0017394 approx 2.8% difference ?????

    Ford Australia Barra engines I6- Bore: 92.26 mm (3.6 in) X Stroke: 99.31 mm (3.9 in) = Displacement: 3984 cc (243 cu in) Ford rounds of to 4lt.

    The Boss 290 4-valve DOHC 5.4 L V8, 389 hp (290 kW) @ 5500 rpm, 384 lb·ft (521 N·m) @ 4500 rpm I haven't bother doing a calculation as i was ripping out what little hair i have left. Bore: 90.2 mm (3.552 in) X Stroke: 105.8 mm (4.165 in) which will also have a different result.

    " The density of air, ρ (Greek: rho) (air density), is the mass per unit volume of Earth's atmosphere. Air density, like air pressure, decreases with increasing altitude. It also changes with variation in temperature or humidity. At sea level and at 15 °C, air has a density of approximately 1.225 kg/m3 (0.001225 g/cm3, 0.0023769 slug/ft3, 0.0765 lbm/ft3) according to ISA (International Standard Atmosphere)."

    weight of air in 1 (cubic foot) = 0.0807 lbs ( Air_density ????? )

    1 (cubic foot) = 28.3168466 litres
    One cubic meter equals 35.3 cubic feet
    One cubic meter also equals 1000 liters or one million cubic centimeters.)


    Sorry for the mumbo jumbo question but it is bugging me LOL

    Cheers

  7. #47
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    MumboJumbo “Wracking”or“Racking”my brain out -That Big Orange Heavy Thing By Paul Yaw

    Sill “Wracking” or “Racking” my brain out? and the little percentage that i use of it, more reading and more reading " That Big Orange Heavy Thing " by Paul Yaw@InjectorDynamics great read but would of liked to have seen more BOOBIES :P cause when I READ playboy magazines its the other way around. OOPS sorry its a G-rate forum, back on my delamar.

    This is all cut'n'paste of Paul's works that has shed some light on me being so anal inattentive fixated on a number.

    -That Big Orange Heavy Thing By Paul Yaw - " you get no boobies! That’s right, just math and physics. Suck it up boys, and prepare to crunch some numbers.

    Ford states displacement as lbs per induction event at 100% VE, under standard temperature and pressure conditions. Just not the standard temperature and pressure conditions you may be used to. Not SAE J607 (60 F, 29.921 inHg) not SAEJ1349 (77 F, 29.234 inHg) not even the more obscure J1995 (77 F, 29.53 inHg) No…that would be too much like everyone else. Ford’s standard is 100 F, and 29.921 inHg.

    if you were wondering how to calculate displacement Ford style, here it is.

    1. – Calculate the density of dry air at 100F and 29.921 inHg.

    1.326 * (29.921 / (100 + 459.7)) = .07089 lbs/ft^3

    2. – Multiply this by the single cylinder volume displacement in ft^3.

    For a 330 cubic inch, 8 cylinder engine – (330 / 8) / 1728 = .02388 ft^3

    3. Multiply air density by single cylinder volume displacement.

    .07089 * .02388 = .001692 lb

    Simplified – (Displacement in cubic inches / Number of Cylinders) / 24392

    So now we get to the final steps. The steps that take us to the old familiar VE tables

    Ford’s version of speed density is quite clever, ignoring volumetric efficiency and getting straight to the point, which is air mass. After all, we don’t calculate air fuel ratio based on volume, we calculate air fuel ratio based on mass. So why bother with a volume term?"
    This article is worth a read, amongst many other topics Paul Yaw written articles.

    Head down bum up more work for me to warp my little brain about Ford HPTuner VCM suite.

    cheers

  8. #48
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    I did the calc for the turbo 6 when that article came out and I ended up with a displacement figure different to that stated in the calibration. I didn't explore why though!

  9. #49
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    I also found this odd but when checking numbers for Load calculation I noticed that if you used Paul's numbers then cylinder air mass was correct when pressure was 31.00inHg. So either Paul's numbers are different to what Ford used or Ford Aus used 31.00inHg instead of 29.921inHg. The numbers in the tune would have you believe Ford used 29.89inHg (Default Baro under Airflow -> General). We know the standard temps in the tune ar 200F for coolant and 100F for air temp, you can check the Speed Density tables and you will find a 1.0 in those areas.

    It does not really matter unless you intend doing Load calculations and then you need to use the Ford values as that is what the PCM is using.

    If you have not already have a read through this:

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...-tuning-in-AUS

    The IH8TOADS posts are particularly helpful.

  10. #50
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    Volumetric cylinder fill VE's should change dramatically.

    Hi IH8TOADS & DarrylC , thanks guys , yep read that whole thread/posts 4 times :O

    Atmospheric barometric pressure, air temperature, humidity, sea level to higher altitudes all affect cylinder fill so the Volumetric cylinder fill VE's should change dramatically.

    Just getting my head around it LOL

    Cheers

  11. #51
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    Why cant i open the attachment in the first comment thanKs

  12. #52
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    You need a pdf reader like acrobat reader installed on you PC so you can open the download.

  13. #53
    i have been reading this and i under stand a lot of it and it is spot on for a learner.
    when you say map at {zero air mass high res}=2.30inhg
    how is it calculated.as iam trying to work out in the tables how the 4.30 and the larger numbers are represented in the tables
    i may be missing something.
    i understand how to change the valves that are all ready in the tables.
    thanks

  14. #54
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    The tables are referenced by cam angle and rpm, so at 2000rpm and a 30 degree cam angle then these are the values.

    To see how they are calculated grab US Patent 6,115,664 of the web. It is a good read and quite clever. Basically, on a running engine with everything being controlled, you will need to hold the cam at an angle and measure at least 2 points to determine Airmass for each MAP and then you can calculate the slope and offset. Much easier without VCT but at least there are not that many cam angles to MAP

    I did a remap of the tables by LTFTs but you need a lot of points for each RPM, cam angle and will have to do a regression analysis. As Toads pointed out it is probably easier to fudge the injectors as that way you will not have to check/redo all the load points. I wrote a program to automate this

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrylC View Post
    ... but at least there are not that many cam angles to MAP
    You guys are getting the 2015 Mustang soon, haha. Get ready to pull your hair out.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  16. #56
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    The same slope and offset calculations as those used for the t-MAP recalibration can be used to determine new values. You will also need accurate AFR readings at different MAP and RPM values.
    You also need to lock the cam angle and do sweeps starting at say -10 degrees and ending in 20 degrees.

    The problem is you need to also start with accurate injector data. I did this when the Injector Dynamics 1000's came out, however starting with a modified car meant that the car would not even run with the correct injector scaling. It did my head in and was talking with Paul Yaw at the time who supplied me with the precise data for 4bar. Anyway I ended up having to fudge the data slightly to get the car running to start amending the speed density calibration. Once I was ball park I had to put the correct 4 bar data in and start again. After all this my recommendation is to not bother lol. You also have to go through the entire calibration and redo anything load based as the resulting load figures for each scalar and/or table breakpoint have changed. I have the tools to do this all this yourself but in all honesty its not worth it. Adjust the slope and offset where you have to to get your ~ desired lambda and be done with it!!!

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric@HPTuners View Post
    You guys are getting the 2015 Mustang soon, haha. Get ready to pull your hair out.
    Can we turn launch control back on with HPT?
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by IH8TOADS View Post
    ... After all this my recommendation is to not bother lol. You also have to go through the entire calibration and redo anything load based as the resulting load figures for each scalar and/or table breakpoint have changed. I have the tools to do this all this yourself but in all honesty its not worth it. Adjust the slope and offset where you have to to get your ~ desired lambda and be done with it!!!
    I could not agree more and posted something very similar about an hour earlier (almost synchronicity). See:

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...l=1#post383142

    I just HAD to go through the whole process

    It is amazing what results can be achieved by simple changes

  19. #59
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    ^ Agreed 100%, the only reason I would like the larger map sensor is to keep the boost curve flat, but I suppose even if the turbo is out of puff uptop if it keeps making more power down low then I suppose, no real harm in spiking it down low if there is still gains to be had. As I said recently, the boost curve might look like something Carey Hart would like to hit 4th pinned and attempt a triple back flip, but if works it works lol
    Ford BF Turbo Ute,Stock head/cams, In house built bottom end,Atomic Springs, Forged Rods,Cosworth Pistons,Atomic Billet oil pump gears,ARP Head/mainstuds,Process West Stage 3 Cooler Kit- Plazmaman plenum,Precision Int.Gate 6466,Manta twin 3" exhaust,ID1000s Plazmaman surge with Holley 12-1800 pump, Home Built ZF6H26, On United Pump E85 499rwkw 10.5@135mph https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgZupPhrMss
    Latest mods, FG intake manifold conversion and ID1300s-500rwkw, Yet to see the 1/4Mile

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiddeous View Post
    Can we turn launch control back on with HPT?
    On the 2015? Is the AU model not going to have it?
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC