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Thread: Nizpro Drilled injector data

  1. #61
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    Toads,
    Good pick up on the ID 1300, have not seen any data for the KPM injectors. Would love to know what the data is for their 550cc injectors and see how close I got with my calculations as I believe they are Bosch 0280 158 117s. As you say if the data is good then that is a real bonus.

    I have asked on this post:

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...151#post366151

    about why Ford does not seem to use its own Motorsport data for their injectors. Anyone else found this?

    Tony,
    Have you tried the Nizpro data?

  2. #62
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    The test fluid can make a difference. What does it say on the calibration sheet? Heptane?

    Anyway this is common the SCT value files can be different to the stock files.

    Also in regards to the minimum pulsewidth, I'm pretty sure this value in the Ford Racing Summaries is based on a statistical value whereby the min pulsewidth is defined by the point where the actual delivered fuel mass varies from the commanded by greater than 5%.

    I wouldn't stress too much....you will find yourself adjust the slopes from those published in most cases.

    ....accidentally posted in that other thread.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JETURBO View Post
    I strongly agree with luke

    LTFT at as close to 0 trim is the key imho as STFT can be everywhere and anywhere but if LTFT's are very ballpark the STFT' reflect better and better %'s

    I have always seen STFT's as almost a quick "reflection" to AFR and watching the car log on the dyno also shows simple patterns of this ( obviously due to the narrow band )
    I switched on the LTFT for the first time in a very long time. It trims mostly at zero and some areas +/- 2%. When you put it into neutral it seems to save a seperate trim for this I notice.

    Nevertheless I do notice it does drive a little better with LTFT on. The air/fuel ratio seems to be a bit more stable. But as you can see tuning with LTFT off, It came pretty good. Now to put Nizpros scalers in to do a back to back LTFT comparison.

  4. #64
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    Good stuff tony

    If you let the load settle out of gear it will trim close to what load trims u just need to give it time and each time "load" fluctuate's ( A/C, lights etc etc ) the trimming % will until it "settles" again
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbotrana View Post
    Now to put Nizpros scalers in to do a back to back LTFT comparison.
    Tony any feedback on how the Nizpro scalers performed?

  6. #66
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    Darryl, I am currently at
    114 low
    73 high
    offset 1.14 (I just use the one figure)
    B/p 0.000030
    pw min 0.30

    I can get the car to trim very well, but just have a lean spot on accelerator tip in that I am working out now. See the speed density thread.

    I can get it to trim and drive nicely at various values, but in the absence of proper injector data there is a final bit of fudging to get the car to be 100%.

    I am purely doing this as a learning exercise. Once Hp gets the datalogging stuff out I believe I will be able to refine it even more.

    I do hope that there will be a flag that allows you to know whether you are on low slope or high slope. This is what would help alot.

  7. #67
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    Some good info on Moates.net

    A link cause the below got messed up in the copy/paste

    http://support.moates.net/ford-tuning-injectors/

    Categories: How Tuning Works
    Introduction

    One of the most common modifications that require recalibration of the ECM are changing injectors and changing Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensors.

    For the rest of this article, we’re going to assume that you’ve already read the articles explaining basic MAF operation and a model for injectors. We’re going to discuss how to properly change the tune to compensate for new fuel injectors.

    You should also take a look at the article on MAF Calibration as they often go hand in hand.
    About Injectors on Ford ECMs

    Ford uses the concept of injector slopes, breakpoints and battery voltage latency adjustment to cover the behavior of injectors. Slopes represent the flow of the injector at high and low pulsewidths. Breakpoints determine the pulsewidth required to switch from the low slop to the high slope. Returnless fuel system cars add additional compensation tables related to fuel rail pressure. When changing injectors, it is best to have a complete set of test data.

    In many cases, injectors purchased from Ford Racing will include all of this information.
    If you’re using a larger OEM injector (Cobra, Lightning, etc.) you can generally obtain valid data from the OEM calibration in which the injectors were used. Example SXH1 08 GT500 48#, 01 Lightning CUX2 for 42#, 03 Cobra AMZ2 for 39#, 98 Cobra AOL3 for 24#, etc.
    If you don’t have complete test data, you can make do. You will need a wideband. Recommended procedure:
    The rest of this procedure assumes you have a SOMEWHAT sane MAF transfer function. If your MAF transfer is jacked, you may need to adjust, retune MAF then readjust a few times to get things properly aligned.
    Start with the data of the injector closest in size and design to the one you are using (slopes, inj latency, etc.). If you can’t get any good data on other injectors, then your stock ones will do. We will call this the “old” injector.
    Figure out what the injectors you are installing are rated for (i.e. 24#). Remember the size of you old injectors (i.e. 19#). Divide your NEW rated flow by your OLD rated flow. Make sure your injectors are rated at the same pressure. 24/19 = 1.26 in this case
    Multiply both the LOW SLOPE and HIGH SLOPE by the value from above, in this case 1.26.
    Set your target AFRs / Open loop targets to a a UNIFORM value. (i.e. 12.5 for a NA car)
    Do a WOT pass on the car. Observe AFR. Adjust BOTH high and low slope until actual AFRs resemble the target AFRs you have set up in your tune.
    Repeat #6 until the car is as close as possible to what you are commanding.
    Let the car idle. Turn off closed loop if necessary. Observe AFRs. Adjust latency (battery voltage table) so that observed AFR is close to commanded AFR.
    Drive the car at low – light throttle. Hopefully, Observed AFRs will be close to commanded AFRs. If so, skip ahead to #11
    If observed AFRs differ significantly from targeted at part throttle, determine how badly they are off. If they’re really far off, re-adjust in order to get things as close as you can. After this, make SELECTIVE adjustments to the MAF transfer function at idle in order to achieve targets at idle while maintaining proper operation at light throttle.
    Once you have a preliminary set of slopes, latency values it is time to tune battery voltage tables. First, observe battery voltage and AFR while IDLING. At idle, the injectors are open the smallest amount of time so changes from battery voltage have the largest effect.
    Next turn on headlights, blower motors, brake lights, EVERYTHING you possibly can to put an electrical load on the motor. Observe changes in battery voltage and AFR. Make adjustments to the injector battery table in order to compensate for fluctuations. I.e. if the car goes lean when you turn on the headlights, INCREASE the latency value at the voltage that the ECM reports with the lights on.
    Once you have the engine operating in a more consistent AFR range under electrical loan, rev the motor up and make sure that you don’t go too rich when battery voltage increases as a sanity check.
    At this point, you’ve probably done a more thorough injector calibration than most tuners will.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiddeous View Post

    I would be looking at slopes around the 60lb mark on the high side and work backwards from there to get your low slopes. (B series stock injectors where 36lb stock)

    .
    You are right with the high slope starting point. I pretty much didn't check the high slope and kept it close to what the original tuner had it cause I thought he would have had it pretty close. But I have taken it down from 73lb to 65lb and I still could take out some more to get base lambda and actual lambda to match under load.

    Nevertheless this was the problem of the tip in being lean and pretty much richening the high slope seems to have resolved this issue. I will see how cold start up goes to confirm this.

  9. #69
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    Sounds like you are making some good progress. Hopefully this with the open loop delay and ramp should sort out your lean tip in.
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  10. #70
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    Thanks again Luke. Car drives as it should including cold starts.
    Without that piece of info I would have been scratching my head a bit. I was scratching it when I took it from the Nizpro specified 79lb high slope down to 73lb and I wanted to richen up more at the time but just left it there thinking I will deal with it latter.

    I really wanted to believe in Nizpro and my Top Perth tuner thinking they cant be this wrong.

    But the lesson it taught me was how important it is to dialing in the high slope together with the low slope.