Nizpro Drilled injector data

[hiddeous]

Keen to hear how you lay this out Tony, I have never disabled ltft for tuning and have not had an issue.

[JETURBO]

I strongly agree with luke

LTFT at as close to 0 trim is the key imho as STFT can be everywhere and anywhere but if LTFT's are very ballpark the STFT' reflect better and better %'s

I have always seen STFT's as almost a quick "reflection" to AFR and watching the car log on the dyno also shows simple patterns of this ( obviously due to the narrow band )

Very true hey daryl

love where this is going as u can never have enough opinions or input nor will anyone ever know it all ( me included lol )

Keep the info flowing !!

[IH8TOADS]

How's Jet's style. Neglects to share anything he has done himself to help others, yet will post data that others have provided in private lol.

[turbotrana]

I agree with the approach in the "Ultimate Ford TUning guide" for Hp tuners. Although this is for tuning the Mustang, alot of it applies to our tuning. In the manual he states that trying to do anything with LTFT enabled is like chasing your tail. I happen to agree with this.
He outlines two approaches to dialing in the injectors. One is to disable LTFT, just using STFT. The other is to disable LTFT and STFT (closed loop) so thats in entirely in open loop.
I mainly tune the driving parts of the map with LTFT disabled. I leave LTFT off cause once you do a turbo side intake and take off all the piping you are disturbing the fueling requirements of the engine in the idle/cruise part of the maps. I think it runs slightly leaner. Therefore the trimming will not be correct for the whole map unless you correct the other fueling tables which is really a very difficult thing to do IMO with non live tuning.

Nevertheless I will outline my method further, just don't have time ATM. I don't claim its right, please cut my method to pieces if you disagree.

[DarrylC]

I agree with the approach in the "Ultimate Ford TUning guide" for Hp tuners. Although this is for tuning the Mustang, alot of it applies to our tuning. In the manual he states that trying to do anything with LTFT enabled is like chasing your tail. I happen to agree with this.

Nevertheless I will outline my method further, just don't have time ATM. I don't claim its right, please cut my method to pieces if you disagree.

Tony that is interesting as I bought Don LaSota's upub book about 18 months ago and found it helpful and completely understand where you are coming from. I was trying to work out how to do speed density but what I was doing was not working (missing High Res tables!) so asked Don and he said he had no idea on the Ausy speed density side of things.

Very appreciative of your efforts to expain this and, like Jet, love where this is heading as it will certainly improve my knowledge.

BTW. Increasing the Offset fixed the doughy response coming off light cruise and changed the decel LTFT from +14 to -12%. Here is the old and new tables:

Volt	Offset	
8	2.646481385	2.646481385
10	1.72591547	1.72591547
11	1.460569096	1.460569096
12	1.251085079	1.291000051
13	1.088153105	1.157880062
14	0.946169428	1.047000056
15	0.83677005	0.951033027

Interesting decel can be changed so much by Offset (new values are close combo of LU47 and factory BA). Might try in between but car is running brilliantly.

[JETURBO]

How's Jet's style. Neglects to share anything he has done himself to help others, yet will post data that others have provided in private lol.

i was prevlidged with the data long ago so i feel this is an acceptable circle for it to be shared

As i said i did not populate the data so keep this thread up dated if anythings majorly off for the good of everyone else ( nothing worse than bad data )






no worries brendon, u may or may not of seen the part where i never claimed any of it as my own, further more ive offered my OWN data many times ( check the BF fueling thread ) i really did not think it was much of a biggy as these injectors are old as the hills and very few still run them, it was a genuine attempt of helping tony out nothing more, we all know how hard it can be to have something to start off especially BP and battery offsets, i did ask first in normal ( and your own style ) if a genuine attempt had been made vs just handing it out on a silver platter .......

i have said it 100 times i will share anything with nearly anyone as long as they have tried with data to back up the question at hand

if you think i hand out anything anyone who has ever helped me with like its "my own" your very wrong and thats nothing close to anything i do ever

cheers

[turbotrana]

This is the way I dial in Injector Lo Slope and Injector Offset in the absence of data or data that does not seem to work too well. This method applies to larger injectors where you are usually in the lo slope when under very light load.


Set LTFT off.

Injector Offset : Raise to richen fuel at idle, reduce to lean out. Very small amounts make sizable changes. Influence decreases once off idle. For the FG I just use the one figure as the voltage on the FG is quite stable due to it having closed loop voltage regulation. I have also seen Mustang tunes that use one offset amount in the offset tables. May not work for B series.

Lo slope : Affects fueling at very low rpm/load.

Dialling in is basically a juggling act between Injector Offset and Lo Slope by reading airfuel ratios and STFT at idle and airfuel ratio and STFT at low RPM cruise (I usually cruise under 1200 rpm as the switchover to Hislope is somewhere close by. See calc in latter post regarding calculating breakpoint.
You are going backwards and forwards adjusting the two as they both influence one another until they are both trimming the amount you are aiming for. Ideally zero trim.

Once drivability is there at low RPM I dial in the Hislope by zeroing the " Open Loop Fuel TPS threshold " and get Hi slope dialed in starting off with low to medium accelerator input in the initial stages and checking for desired a/f ratio.
The whole process will have to be repeated a few times to fine tune the trimming.

[DarrylC]

Tony, thank you, well done. I will need to digest but it certainly helps.

Change over point is effectively breakpoint/Low Slope, See:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...l=1#post358278

My change over points have been below idle with my injectors (idle was about 1200->1500ms and breakpoints were always lower).

I did it by logging injector pulse width and LTFT then working back mathematically to what values of Slope/Offset would give me close to the pw. PITA approach!

This looks like a much more promising approach.

[hiddeous]

Good write up Tony, essentially the same process I have followed in the past with injectors without decent scaling data.

IMHO therein lies the value in a set of ID 1000's they data they provide is top notch and apart from fudging the slopes a touch depending on the airflow of the particular setup on the car they are as close to plug and play as you will get.

[DarrylC]

IMHO therein lies the value in a set of ID 1000's they data they provide is top notch and apart from fudging the slopes a touch depending on the airflow of the particular setup on the car they are as close to plug and play as you will get.

OK I'll bite. Why are we changing injector slopes to suit a car, shouldn't we be changing the tune (speed density tables) to reflect the cars altered configuration? I just thought that if the injectors data was good then it will would be good for all cars.

I have seen this done with Siemens Deka 60s as well, dropping the high slope to fix fuel at 5000rpm+.

[hiddeous]

OK I'll bite. Wshouldn't we be changing the tune (speed density tables) to reflect the cars altered configuration? I just thought that if the injectors data was good then it will would be good for all cars.

Yes we should be, most people don't due to the time to do so and the acceptable result from fudging the slopes. The injector values are for the stock with the stock airflow model (Ratter/Mick Egan posted a while back on fordxr6turbo.com his results when dropping a set of id725's in his wife stock G6E. Fuelling was bang on)

Being that we have easier breather modded engines with high boost pressure the model is now incorrect. No different to having to recalibrate the maf tables on a modded maf equipped car.

[DarrylC]

Hiddeous, thanks for that I was wondering if that was the case. Certainly a quick way to do a global change to the SD tables.

BTW when I spoke to ratter on the KPM Fuel Info evening in Melbourne he had pulled those injectors out of Bels car as they had issues.

[turbotrana]

If we had live tuning, full datalogging and an instruction manual, the same as what Ford have then we would be changing Speed Density Tables if we needed to.

However with this non live flash tuning that we have where it takes a couple minutes a flash, then you got to switch to the scanner to check what is going on and back and forth, its just too hard. So we do it the easiest and most effective way. We fudge.

[IH8TOADS]

Darryl you are 100% right regarding tuning the airflow model.

As a general observation for the community, if you put a set of IDs in a 100% stock car I very much doubt the fuelling will be 100% correct. In fact if you did this for the Deka 60 data you will be riding the minimum pulsewidth and have a rich condition as low engine speed. I did a full speed density re-calibration on my BA when I had standard cams and it took forever. There is so many 'load' scalers etc that need changing to reflect the recalculated load as a result of different airflow that it becomes very tedious exercise.

On a car that doesn't have a unique slope and offset for each cam angle it is much much easier....however for the masses I would just fudge the scalers and tidy up the airflow where needed and be done with it.

[Huddo]

I'm sure the injectors that were swapped out in Mick's wifes car that had issues were not the ID's

[DarrylC]

I'm sure the injectors that were swapped out in Mick's wifes car that had issues were not the ID's

That's not what I remember him telling me, cant remember what he said he put in after though (KPM or ID which he said were much better). The injectors that went into Bel's car were F6 then ID725s, see:

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?p=4747956

I mentioned that "I wish I could go with the ID725s but the LPG system will not go there" and that is when he brought it up.

[Huddo]

hmmm might message him on facebook

[DarrylC]

hmmm might message him on facebook

Huddo, that would be good and get it cleared up. Happy to be wrong, just what I remember him saying and my notes from the evening confirm it.

[JETURBO]

Correct he did the id750's now kpm 1500's

[Huddo]

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