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Thread: Fuel Economy Tuning Ideas

  1. #181
    for what its worth, the original equation can be reduced also, but it is more difficult because of the attempt at temperature correction.

    If we assume however that most of the time the IAT will be about 100 and the ECT will be about 200, then the temperature factor will end up being:

    (((100 + 200)/2) + 273) / 299

    Which is about 1.4

    Although incorrect, this error actually ends up helping quite a bit because it increases the factor at the start of the equation (which would have been 5835). When multiplied by the likely temperatures, the value jumps up and apparently gave good results for some people.

    Nonetheless, once we have the likely values for temperature, the complicated equation published earlier ends up typically reducing to:

    8753 * [SENS.20] / [PID.6210] / [SENS.112] / [SENS.70]

    Look familiar? (Well, it's just algebraic manipulation)

    Unfortunately, I can envision situations where the temperature correction would result in very bad values for fuel consumption.

    Keep in mind that in this case, the value 8753 has been linked to ECT and IAT - during winter time or when the engine is cold, or when the engine is very hot. Under no circumstance will the density of fuel change by 41%. So it is best to do it right and not have the calculated value change based on the weather. Basically, the hotter things got, the more the old equation would have predicted better mileage - but it was just coincidence.

    On a very cold day when the IAT is report 0 degrees and the engine is also 0. The correction factor would have yielded about 0.93 instead of 1.4 and this would erroneously reduce your mileage by 35% until things warmed up. Of course this isn't what really happens. Fuel density doesn't change this way and injectors self compensate for minor fluctuations in density anyway.

    My guess is that the value that I reported for a V8 (12096) will end up being reduced based on actual driving experience to a number closer to 10000. I am curious why this happens, but it isn't temperature related.

    There is something else still missing.

    I also did the computation for fuel mileage using calculated air mass in each cylinder and divided by the stoich ratio to get fuel used. When I do this, I get lower values for mileage that may actually be more accurate. This may be a resolution or round off problem in some of the PCMs. I'm not really sure.

    If I had to guess as to why this happens, it would be that the injectors have a longer lag during opening than closing upon receiving an injector pulse. I can easily see how this could be the case. To open, the injector has to overcome a substantial pressure differential. To close it has both a spring and pressure helping it.

    These equations ASSUME that the injector pulse results in an instantaneous injection of fuel at full delivery. Obviously, this is not correct. But engineers are great at coming up with correction factors, aren't they?

    In any case, this variation will be different for different injectors and everyone here will have to experimentally determine this value for their car/injectors.

    All you do is divide your actual mileage by the mileage reported by your Histogram value and multiply the (12096 by that value). This will get you dead on.

    Can't wait to hear what the value is for stock injectors and how it varies with after market injectors.

    Sam Michael
    Chemical Engineer
    Sam Michael
    Chemical/Controls Engineer

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by samgm2
    I've been going through this equation and am not clear on how it was derived.

    1. The multiplier for fuel rate in the previous equation is (0.132276). This is saying that there are 7.56 pounds of gasoline per gallon. That number is way too high. 6.4 pounds is about right.

    2. The previous equation below provided a correction for volumetric changes in gasoline using what appears to be Boyle's Law. Moreover, it appears to have been inverted - yielding incorrect results anyway. In other words when the temperature of the fuel increased, it increased its density and by large amounts. REGARDLESS, BOYLE'S ONLY APPLIES TO GASES. IT DOES NOT APPLY TO LIQUIDS AT ALL. In addition, the temperatures are converted from relative temperatures to absolute temperatures by adding 273.15 degrees. But this number is used for the Celsius scale - and the temperatures are being provided in Fahrenheit. Assuming ECT is 200 F and IAT is 100 F, this part of the equation would alter the fuel density by 41%! Even for a temperature swing of 200 F I doubt you would see a 4% variation in the density of gasoline. To account for density changes in gasoline you would have to use an Equation of State like Peng-Robinson. Hardly worthwhile since a center value gets you within 2% of actual mileage.

    If we were working with a gas and using the Fahrenheit scale, conversion to the Rankine scale would have been appropriate (adding about 460 degrees to go to absolute temperature).

    Nonetheless, if people here are really interested, I will take the time to derive a correlation that will account for temperature changes. Keep in mind however that injectors are rated in mass per time and not volume per time. This is due to inertial effects within the injector. The primary delivery effects are due to pressure differentials and not density variations. In other words, when the gasoline is lighter (because it is less dense) the pressure difference across the injector orifice is able to throw more gasoline out, negating the effects of minor density variations. In essence, there is no need for correction or a very small need.

    I recalculated the equation and hopefully didn't make any mistakes as it is easy to do so.

    We have:

    • speed - Miles / Hour
    • Injector flow rate - lb/ hour (per injector)
    • number of injectors - dimensionless
    • % duty - dimensionless


    We are interested in getting miles per gallon.

    The Injector value returns the flow in pounds for one injector (about 27 pounds per hour) assuming it is on continuously.
    The value returned by [PID.6210] is about 3.5 (clearly in grams per second - which converts to about 27.5 lb/hr)

    If we have 8 injectors that number would then be multiplied by 8

    There are approximately 6.4 pounds of gasoline in a gallon.

    So the total fuel (if the injectors were on all the time) would be (in gallons):

    Flow Rate (conversion factor to pounds per hour) * number of injectors / 6.4 pounds per gallon.

    (g/s) * (3600 s/1hr) * (1lb/453.69 g) = fuel rate * 7.9367 lb / hr

    For an 8 cylinder engine, this is:

    Fuel Rate * 7.9367 * 8 / 6.4 = 9.92 * Fuel Rate (now in gallons per hour):

    Since the injectors aren't on all time, we need to determine what part of the total time they are on. This is referred to as the DUTY.

    In this case, the injector duty divided by the length of time between injector pulses will yield the duty:

    The length of a cycle can be calculated from the engine speed variable which is given in rotations per minute.

    The injectors are fired for each cylinder ever two engine rotations. The length of time is thus:

    (Rotations / minute) * (60 seconds / rotation) * 2

    This gives us the number of rotations in 1 seconds. To get the number of seconds in a rotations, we simply take the reciprocal.

    Our formula for the total time is then:

    120/RPM

    We will also need the injector pulse time to be in seconds.

    (#ms) * (1s / 1000 ms)


    The DUTY is the ratio of ON TIME over TOTAL TIME yielding a dimensionless number.

    Injector Pulse Width / 1000 / (120 / RPM) = Injector Pulse Width * RPM / 120000

    Bringing all of this together, we simply get (8 cylinder):

    12096 * speed / flow / PW / RPM (no parenthesis to enter)

    This equation is markedly different from the equation prior and yields dramatically different results.


    In addition to being inherently different, there are other problems with the equation derived earlier.


    The final formula to enter for an 8 cylinder engine in the PID is then:

    12096 * [SENS.20] / [PID.6210] / [SENS.112] / [SENS.70]


    For a 6 cylinder engine the equation is:

    9072 * [SENS.20] / [PID.6210] / [SENS.112] / [SENS.70]


    The ability for the above equations to yield accurate results is dependent on numerous factors, not the least of which is that we are always getting data from the computer. In essence, we are performing an integration of a function (Miles per gallon) in an attempt to get average MPG.

    If the above data does not yield the correct MPG for a vehicle, it can be easily corrected by a correction factor.

    For example if your averaging function reported that you got 34 MPG but you actually got 24, you would simply multiply the 12096 number by (24/34) which would yield 8538. From that point on, your data would accurate for your car and more importantly, the instantaneous MPG numbers would be accurate and helpful in tuning.


    Sam Michael
    Chemical Engineer.
    2003 5.7 RCSB 224/228 114 60lb MOTORONS LONG TUBE HEADERS CAT DELETE 4L80E 3.73

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by samgm2
    Nothing else is required.

    But if it makes you feel better because you like typing and the increased possibility of a mistake, you can enter:

    ((12096 * [SENS.20]) / ([PID.6210] * [SENS.112] * [SENS.70]))

    but it is functionally identical to

    12096 * [SENS.20] / [PID.6210] / [SENS.112] / [SENS.70]

    Sam Michael
    Chemical Engineer

    Do you use % as your units?

  4. #184
    No. The result of the equation is Miles / Gallon.

    I don't believe that option exists. You don't have to have units.


    Sam

    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrod_R
    Do you use % as your units?
    Sam Michael
    Chemical/Controls Engineer

  5. #185
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    arthansen,

    How do you calculate the afr in the ve tables? Would I go to a higher setting or lower? My primary ve table shows 1600's at 2200 rpm and 40-50 map.
    98 1500 suburban-vortec v8.

    sartech

    Quote Originally Posted by arthansen
    I loaded the MPG Pid into my 2003 LS1 Corvette and my 2004 4.3L Blazer and they both work great. I am consentrating on the Blazer for MPG improvment since it is my daily drive. Right now I am baselining it and then I will start making changes. I will start with the sugestions that have been presented here but am eager to try something I have been thinking about for awhile.

    On a vehicle running SD mode, find the cells in the VE table that the motor runs in at highway speeds and tweek the values to give 16:1 AFR in those cells. This would be an easy way to get "Lean Cuise". It might melt the Cats but I live in Florida (no Smog tests) so that is an easy fix . I will have to move my WBO2 to the Blazer but that won't be too hard.

    Any thoughts?

  6. #186
    In order to get leaner numbers (Higher AFR) you would decrease the values in the VE table.

    I admit to being a bit confused here though...

    Once in closed loop, the computer will correct errors in the VE table to go back to its target value (14.7) unless a different stoich ratio is specified. For a narrow band sensor the resolution drops off dramatically as you go away from a stoich burn so I am not sure that I would trust much of this.

    Also, why would the cat melt (as feared by Arthansen) because he is running lean? This would have no effect on the cat. The cat on sees real heat when it is catalyzing unburned product (or the exhaust is rich) and there is available O2 in the exhaust stream that it can convert. This situation should only take place when the control loop is oscillating due to an improperly designed loop or a rapid set point change. It could also take place if the timing is too retarded and full combustion is not taking place within the cylinders.

    Quote Originally Posted by sartech
    arthansen,

    How do you calculate the afr in the ve tables? Would I go to a higher setting or lower? My primary ve table shows 1600's at 2200 rpm and 40-50 map.
    98 1500 suburban-vortec v8.

    sartech
    Sam Michael
    Chemical/Controls Engineer

  7. #187
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    The only thing that the O2 sensors and closed loop can and will do, is to get the combustion centered around stoich. If you adjust the stoich value in the tune, you dont change how lean/fat the mixture is if closed loop is enabled.

    Example, By changing the stoich from 14.7 (correct # for gas), to 16.17 the only thing you achive is a LTFT of +10%, neccecary to make up for the 10% leaner stoich number of 16.17. i.e the ECM change the stoich in the background with LTFT.

    It is NOT posible to run leaner than stoich in closed loop.

    //

  8. #188
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    30% better mileage

    I am installing a hho generator on my 07 silverado and scaling my maf down keep you posted

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitrouspaul
    I am installing a hho generator on my 07 silverado and scaling my maf down keep you posted


    Would love to hear how that goes, got 2 guys at work that just got theres installed this past weekend but they dont have HPTuners to do any adjustments.

  10. #190
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    Yeah, I am very interested in using HHO.

    What are your ideas for tuning?

    obviously, a NB O2 would not work. My best guess would be to use a WB and lean out the fuel as HHO is being used. But how far do you go, and how would you know if you go too far? Maybe monitor EGT and coolant temp?

    Please keep us updated, and maybe start a new thread.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoe

    It is NOT posible to run leaner than stoich in closed loop.

    //
    Is it possible to sim a NB O2 with my wide band and then command the wide band to switch at 15.5(or some other value) instead of 14.7?

  12. #192
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    Is it possible to sim a NB O2 with my wide band and then command the wide band to switch at 15.5(or some other value) instead of 14.7?
    I dobut it, since the switching isnĀ“t done by the=O2, but byt the ECU.
    If there is an electronic thingy between the WB O2 and the ECU fooling the ECU to switch it might be doable.

    //

  13. #193
    Advanced Tuner Atomic's Avatar
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    Even though Lean Cruise is not enabled on US vehicles, the tables and settings are still there, although empty. If you were to fill in the tables with values, would it work?

    Or would the fuel trims have a fit and you stay at stoich?

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomic
    Even though Lean Cruise is not enabled on US vehicles, the tables and settings are still there, although empty. If you were to fill in the tables with values, would it work?

    Or would the fuel trims have a fit and you stay at stoich?
    No. Unfortunately even though the tables are there they will have no effect. I believe the lean cruise function is disable via hard code in the computer accept for a couple of the older Holden cross over vehicles like the GTO. Not sure what years allowed that though.

  15. #195
    Advanced Tuner Atomic's Avatar
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    Ah, rats.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckmann
    No. Unfortunately even though the tables are there they will have no effect. I believe the lean cruise function is disable via hard code in the computer accept for a couple of the older Holden cross over vehicles like the GTO. Not sure what years allowed that though.
    Yep. Disabled in the Operating System...
    Always Support Our Troops!

  17. #197
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    I think some "late-year" pick-up trucks had the code enabled too. I think 2003 or thereabouts Silverado and such ... the tables are zero'd out from the factory nonetheless, but some people had luck populating them. ...or so was the claim.

  18. #198
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    I was able to populate the tables in lean cruise (hoe m.y 03), but there is nothing happening when driving, LC does not take effect.

    //

  19. #199
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    I don't know how to tell if DFCO is on or off. It says DFCO enable normal, and has 104 f for the temp. Under Enable TPS vs rpm the values are 7.5 and under. My throttle is always more than 7.5% so would DFCO never turn on and therefore it is always off right now? Sorry I dont understand how to tune very well.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckmann
    No. Unfortunately even though the tables are there they will have no effect. I believe the lean cruise function is disable via hard code in the computer accept for a couple of the older Holden cross over vehicles like the GTO. Not sure what years allowed that though.
    Only the '04 GTO works.
    Rob
    04 GTO