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Thread: The TRUE and Proper way to enter Injector Data

  1. #1
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    The TRUE and Proper way to enter Injector Data

    In the Hemi ECMs,what is the TRUE and PROPER way to enter Injector Data when using larger injectors in these platforms. Also what are the most used injectors for these platforms?

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    according to the CMR guys, the best way is to find the percentage difference in flow and multiply by that. they also say not to touch the offset tables, which goes against everything I've been taught about injector tuning.

    the go to injectors seem to be the staged SRT4 injectors for anything up to a 60lb. Injector Dynamics also has data for their injectors for the mopars. I've used the ID1300 in a turbo Challenger with good success (with CMR, before HPT came out)

  3. #3
    I'm interested to hear more info on this also. Any insight as to why the offset tables would not be changed?
    AAHHHHH!!!!!!

  4. #4
    Just went in deep with injector data for Hemi calibrations. I spent countless hours researching the hell out of every table and reading a few engineering papers on Dodge injector calibrations.I called a few of the known HEMI shops and asked about the data and was given the red flag. I understand Hemi tuning is not open to the world like GM and they dont want to give a thing out. In the end I went with D&W 94 pound injectors for my build. With the supplied injector data that they sent me and alot of calculations I ended up with some injector data. Good news, on the first start up she cranked over once fired and idled with fuel corrections withing 6%. The car now has over 500 miles and runs and drives great with no starting or stalling problems and is seeing 22+ MPG. Currently on the dyno laying down number close to 700 at the wheels.

    Bad383TA

  5. #5
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    Very strange that they recommend not changing the offsets. From what i understand, they take the percentage of difference in sizing and multiply the fuel mass by that amount and leave the pw the same,correct?
    If this so, and it seems the only way to be correct, I have made a nice spreadsheet to make it easy.

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    Percentage difference multiplication will work fine for the most part, until you start running massive injectors that require extremely low pulsewidth to idle. At that point, fuel delivery curves differ GREATLY, and without the proper data from actual flowbench testing, you'll be tossing the dice with every adjustment.

    I'm running 1100cc injectors on a 2.4L, and it idles great with fuel trims that swing + or - 5%, and that was with making some assumptions on the low end of pulsewidth fuel delivery. I don't think you'd start running into low pulsewidth linearity issues until you start running injectors that are 1300+cc/min in size.

    Also, I didn't ever hear anything about not changing the offset tables, and I have plugged in the offset data for my injectors (FIC 1100s) with no ill effects.

  7. #7
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    Im running FIDs 2000 on an srt4 E85 with trims in the +-3% but even after a few calculations lot of tweeking in the lower pulse was required to get them idle like that but fuel mass and IPW, WOT was the easy part

    I wouldnt see how IPW wouldnt be moved is must

  8. #8
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    I think what you are seeing is that people have been "hack" tuning these vehicles in the past, unlike Ford and GM, where we have good plug and play data. Good to see you guys are challenging it. Hopefully some of the injector companies start providing this information.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner ProTools4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad383ta View Post
    I called a few of the known HEMI shops and asked about the data and was given the red flag. I understand Hemi tuning is not open to the world like GM


    Bad383TA


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  10. #10
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    I've been using CMR for about 5 years now and the first thing I learned about injector scaling is that you have to have good offset data to properly scale injectors... Some tuners leave the offsets alone, and you're 100% right, it's the WRONG way to do it. I am a big fan of FID injectors and I've never had an issue with them, and they give you offset data that's pretty good. But to say that all the mopar tuners use the same hack method, no, not all of us do ;-)

  11. #11
    Have someone tried bosch 60lb injectors, this are gt500 2013 injectors?

    0280158298
    Last edited by caniggia; 11-15-2015 at 03:36 AM.
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  12. #12
    To easy calibrate injectors, log fuel trims, injector pullse width and reqd charge cyl 1.
    I do that with diablo, but many dodge logging in hpt allow this to.

    As base, choose values for pulse that you like, or you can leave what they are.
    if you leave what they are, easy will be to multiply Fuel Mass by percent, so if stock are 34,5 and new are 60lb, multiply by 1.73.
    If you don't leave them, do calculations.
    Take how much flow your injector have and convert it to g/ms, most calculators do to g/s, so divide it by 1000.

    So for 60lb injectors it will be 0.007559872833333
    for 34,5lb injectors it will be 0.0043469

    Multiply this by injector pulse values and you have flow.
    This will be linear base calibration.
    You can also multiply stock values by percent (fuel mass)
    Fill values for both tables.

    For final tweak, use log.
    Import file to excel, divide injector pulse by 1000, divide reqd fuel charge by 1000 sort it by pulse or fuel mass and copy values to you table that are already corrected by PCM.

    I dialed mine in 30 minutes with this method.
    Last edited by caniggia; 07-14-2015 at 12:51 PM.
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  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner blownbluez06's Avatar
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    I'd like to qualify my following statements by stating in advance that I'm a complete Newbie to Dodge. I've played with some Split Second and VECIII products, tuning a couple of Vipers many years ago, but that's it. I've tuned a ton of GM stuff.
    I am about to play with a supercharged 08 Challenger with 95lb injectors. I'll share some of my math that I came up with in advance, adding to what was posted above.
    1lb = 453.592grams That means: 1lb/hr = .125998grams/second = .000125998grams/millisecond = .125998milligrams/millisecond
    That would also mean at 1ms, a 95lb injector, flowing 103.8lbs @ the factory rated pressure of 58psi, it should flow 13.0785924mg/ms. Looking at the chart, it has various times in ms, including .93ms. The way I understand it, you should be able to take your calculated flow and multiply it by your time, meaning a .93ms static flow should equal 13.0785924*.93= 12.163090932milligrams
    Rather than come back later and leave more information, I decided to fill this post in more completely.
    If you have less than stellar results with your entry, I came up with another reference to get a multiplier. It's based on the flow data sheets from the ID1000's. ID shows 17.05462, a multiplication factor of: 0.14960192982456140350877192982456 per pound @ 58psi.
    So choose one of the 2 multipliers that I've provided and multiply it by your flow rate at your given pressure to get your base.
    In my case, I'm running a 95lb Deatschwerks injector. It flows 103.8lbs @58psi.
    So to come up with the multiplier for that specific injector, I chose the ID multiplier that I came up with and multiply 0.14960192982456140350877192982456 by 103.8 and yield my injector specific injector multiplier of 15.528680315789473684210526315789. That's based on 1ms. Next, all I do is multiply that by each time increment. Note that with these large injectors, the resolution of your resultant numbers in the low ms times will be much higher than HPtuners, so it will correct your entries to the next increment.
    Just for example, if you have a time increment in the table that shows .63ms, then you'll multiply 15.528680315789473684210526315789 by .63 and place the result in the box. What I'm about to share is probably obvious to many, but if it's not, you need to know the following. Until I sit down and figure out an Excel spreadsheet for this here's my method. When I'm playing with these large numbers, I will drop them on a page like Microsoft Word so I can continuously copy it into the calculator. Open Word, drop the multiplier in it. Highlight that dropped multiplier in Word and then open your calculator and hit ctrl-V, multiply it by your time increment, hit enter and then the only way to copy the result (that I know of) is to hit ctrl-c, then click on the box in your fuel table and hit ctrl-V. Lather, rinse, repeat for each value.

    Now on to the inverse table.
    For the inverse Inj PW vs Fuel Mass table, set it to ms and set the Fuel Mass vs Inj PW table on grams now and get your multiplier. Divide the pulsewidth by the grams flow. For these 95lb injectors, you get 64.399793920659453889747552807831 for the multiplier. Use that multiplier and multiply it by the fuel mass to get the result. One of my PW values was .0109, so I multiplied ^^ that by .0109 and get 0.70195775373518804739824832560536. Rinse, lather, repeat and you'll be done before you know it.
    Last edited by blownbluez06; 07-19-2015 at 08:31 PM.
    Hsquared racing engines RHS 427, Procharger F2, Moran Billet Atomizer injectors, Alky Control,Mast LS7 heads, Nitrous outlet kit,Tilton quad disc clutch, DSS shaft, RKT56 ZR1 trans, RPM Quaife diff. Built and tuned by yours truly.

  14. #14
    Advanced Tuner blownbluez06's Avatar
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    One other thing that I noticed should make things MUCH simpler is that from .03ms to 1.73ms the values are linear, so you should be able to populate the ends and then interpolate everything in between to get proper values.
    Hsquared racing engines RHS 427, Procharger F2, Moran Billet Atomizer injectors, Alky Control,Mast LS7 heads, Nitrous outlet kit,Tilton quad disc clutch, DSS shaft, RKT56 ZR1 trans, RPM Quaife diff. Built and tuned by yours truly.

  15. #15
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    I'm wondering how many tunes end up with a linear injector flow curve.....
    Having just tuned a hellcat, was easy to see the straight line the injector data showed in HPT.

    Good to see you here Bret.

    Ron

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner blownbluez06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonSSnova View Post
    I'm wondering how many tunes end up with a linear injector flow curve.....
    Having just tuned a hellcat, was easy to see the straight line the injector data showed in HPT.

    Good to see you here Bret.

    Ron
    Thanks RONALD!
    Hsquared racing engines RHS 427, Procharger F2, Moran Billet Atomizer injectors, Alky Control,Mast LS7 heads, Nitrous outlet kit,Tilton quad disc clutch, DSS shaft, RKT56 ZR1 trans, RPM Quaife diff. Built and tuned by yours truly.

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner blownbluez06's Avatar
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    I just updated my post#13. It might be a good sticky reference until I (or someone else) comes up with a spreadsheet calculator or another way that's easier.
    Hsquared racing engines RHS 427, Procharger F2, Moran Billet Atomizer injectors, Alky Control,Mast LS7 heads, Nitrous outlet kit,Tilton quad disc clutch, DSS shaft, RKT56 ZR1 trans, RPM Quaife diff. Built and tuned by yours truly.

  18. #18
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    Not trying to step on any toes, but if you are using ID injectors, the entire flow table from very low ms pulsewidth up to full open are posted on their site. The editor software allows you to input any combination of pulsewidth times along with flow rates, you do not have to stick with the factory pulsewidth times in the tune. You can simply copy and paste in what ID provides and be done with it. They have spreadsheets to download. If you wanted different pulsewidth times than they provide, I would simply interpolate between the times they provide and the time you want, by figuring out what % you are away from the next pulsewidth they provided and multiply that % times the difference in flow rates of the same two points.

    If you are working with a non ID injector simply using the factor of ((New injector lbhr flow / factory injector flow)/factory injector flow lbhr) times the entire fuel mass flow will get you at least 85-90% of the way there.

  19. #19
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    Also I have found the Seimens 80lb injectors flow VERY similar to stock injectors at lower pulsewidths, especially if you are running a return style system with vacuum/boost reference.

  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner blownbluez06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    Not trying to step on any toes, but if you are using ID injectors, the entire flow table from very low ms pulsewidth up to full open are posted on their site. The editor software allows you to input any combination of pulsewidth times along with flow rates, you do not have to stick with the factory pulsewidth times in the tune. You can simply copy and paste in what ID provides and be done with it. They have spreadsheets to download. If you wanted different pulsewidth times than they provide, I would simply interpolate between the times they provide and the time you want, by figuring out what % you are away from the next pulsewidth they provided and multiply that % times the difference in flow rates of the same two points.

    If you are working with a non ID injector simply using the factor of ((New injector lbhr flow / factory injector flow)/factory injector flow lbhr) times the entire fuel mass flow will get you at least 85-90% of the way there.
    You're not stepping on any toes. Everything Dodge is very foreign to me. There seems to be a misunderstanding because I'm not telling anyone how to get ID data (which is on their website as you say). I'm simply using their data as a reference do derive a value for an injector without that level of supporting information.

    If there is a large difference in size, between the Siemens 80's and the stock injectors you're referring to, the only way it makes sense to me that they would be so similar at low pulsewidths is if the offsets are too high on the Siemens or too low on the stockers. With proper offsets, I expect that their flow is a lot more linear than that.
    Hsquared racing engines RHS 427, Procharger F2, Moran Billet Atomizer injectors, Alky Control,Mast LS7 heads, Nitrous outlet kit,Tilton quad disc clutch, DSS shaft, RKT56 ZR1 trans, RPM Quaife diff. Built and tuned by yours truly.