The TRUE and Proper way to enter Injector Data

[mowton]

This are values finally tuned on car, math it's math, but as stated on first page, you need to make finall adjustment by logging.

Still not making sense to me. Math is math as you say and should be much closer...we are talking double here ????? and ID data backs that up as well. There must not be a good understanding of the Dodge internal algorithm to develop the IPW....

Ed M

[HemiC]

First off let me say this conversation has been great for getting someone like me up to speed on his own stuff. So much great info in here but I have a few questions after struggling for a few days on these new ID1050X injectors.

Combo:
2011 Dodge Challenger
6.2 Hellcat shortblock
2.9 Whipple
Comp 274 Cam
ID1050X inj
58psi returnless fuel system
tuning VE with NN off at this point (fueling way off in boost when in NN)

ID posts their plug and play data for the injectors here: http://injectordynamics.com/injectors/id1050x/

For the most part I am looking for a sanity check on how I interpreted their data into my tune. Also looking for an explanation for which data you plugged in for the multiplier calculator they give you to populate the HPT start up inj table. Bottom line, we were having issues getting the DW 95lb injectors to dial in correctly and I just want to nail the ID data before I go adjusting VE etc around it to maximize drivability and WOT fueling.

When I plugged in the below data it started and drive decent but STFT trims were off approx -15% pretty consistent across the table leading me to believe I got something wrong.

Data from my tune:

HPT_Inj_Data.jpg

The only real variable I can see that I may have gotten wrong was the multiplier for the start up base table. I plugged values from a stock 6.4 tune into the ID calculator as I didn't believe the values in my current tune were solid due to all the adjusts to make the DW injectors work. Anyone have advice here?

If anyone has solid non-hellcat ID1000 or 1050X data converted to hpt tables it would be hugely appreciated.

Just looking to learn as much as I can as I go here.

Thanks,

Chris

[JnJSpdShop]

Okay took a look at your data and I guess I don't understand why you go from around 3.00ms to 30.00 ms in one single jump? Also don't understand why most OEM Mopar calibrations go from around 2.6-3.0ms right to 79ms, 155ms then 231ms.

Seems like lots of resolution is wasted from 0.00-1.13ms. Most basic V8 combos stock are going to idle at least in the 1.5ms range and the injectors are definitely linear above this range. Also seems like a waste to use resolution (waste table space) on millisecond pulsewidths that would never be logical to operate at. Most anything over 20-24ms is unattainable over a certain RPM

[HemiC]

I agree, this is how Injector Dynamics have the tables set up on their site. I suppose I could just break the table down and refine the areas used most but I was hoping folks could explain why it is the way it is.

Chris

[Mep_q8]

I've played around with all settings, even logging Fuel Mass delivered vs Pulsewidth ms and tuning injectors that way with good outcomes.

When recently tuning a Boosted Dodge with the ID1050x, the calibration Injector Dynamics offer is perfect and the best I've used for Start up, Idle and WOT. Of course VE has to be tuned for it right, but other wise, it seems they have this injector tamed down and a very good starting point with their information.

Okay took a look at your data and I guess I don't understand why you go from around 3.00ms to 30.00 ms in one single jump? Also don't understand why most OEM Mopar calibrations go from around 2.6-3.0ms right to 79ms, 155ms then 231ms.

Problem with tuning Dodges is there are still a few tables HP Tuners needs to release for proper fueling control. Hacking the injectors to a higher resolution at lower Pulsewidths seems to be the only way we can control start up fueling and open loop idle.

The Linear PW from 3.0ms to 155ms is the easiest way to control the injector at higher Loads. There won't be a cap on the injector limit and you can tune the injector to how you like via the VE table.

A couple days ago I tuned an E85 Procharged RT that had ID1000cc Injectors, at idle I was seeing 0.4ms and trims were maxing out at -30% and O2s were still flat out rich. I changed the injectors cal to a 1600cc injector and at the same Pulsewidth at idle, the Fuel trims were adding 40%.

Tuning the injectors is more tuning the Fuel flow instead of PW. You can ask the computer to give you a certain PW and it will BUT you need to find out how much fuel you need at that certain point.

All vehicles I tune are tuned to their specs. Sometimes the VE table looks a little hacked since we can't scale for Boost like a 2 or 3bar OS for GM, but as long as I can tame trims at idle, and cruise, WOT fueling is a piece of cake.

[Hemituna]

"All vehicles I tune are tuned to their specs. Sometimes the VE table looks a little hacked since we can't scale for Boost like a 2 or 3bar OS for GM, but as long as I can tame trims at idle, and cruise, WOT fueling is a piece of cake."



What do you mean by... "Sometimes the VE table looks a little hacked since we can't scale for boost like a 2 or 3 bar OS for GM" ???

[Hemituna]

"Problem with tuning Dodges is there are still a few tables HP Tuners needs to release for proper fueling control. Hacking the injectors to a higher resolution at lower Pulsewidths seems to be the only way we can control start up fueling and open loop idle"

I've found no need to hack anything to get perfect starts and warm-up.
What tables are missing??

[Jay@HAP]

ID lists their injector data for VE tuning for lack of a better term. I went through this when I put ID1700's in a Hellcat. I ended up having Paul give me data similar to OE but with more breakpoints. It worked great.

[Hemituna]

I'm just interested as to why lots seem to struggle with this aspect of dodge fueling.
My VE tables end up smooth as do the Inj tables.
I often don't even know what injectors are in the vehicle and just make up the numbers and trim as I go.
The tune will be finished long before I could try and find the correct data if it even exists.
Doesn't take long at all, it ain't rocket science.

[Mep_q8]

I've found no need to hack anything to get perfect starts and warm-up.
What tables are missing??

Well when you have a ton of cmr files to reference I'm sure you don't.. Start up "cold" till engine operating temps, fuel trims do spike.. my fuel trims and VE are smooth as silk too. Idle on 1300cc injectors are +/- 2% and cruise is +/-3-4% .. But start up cold, trims do go haywire. The way HPT sets up the cranking and start up pulsewidth could be more user friendly in order to get a hand on it..

[Hemituna]

The trims go whack because you are adding cold temp enrichment and the CL is just pulling it back out.
If you delay CL till a reasonable engine temp of say 50-60c, by then most of the enrichment is gone and the trims don't wig out.
You can tune the start and warm up with the wideband so it runs nice, and don't allow the narrow band to mess it up.
Big injectors, cams, blower manifolds rarely like stoich on warmup so keeping the CL away for a while really helps.

Well when you have a ton of cmr files to reference I'm sure you don't.. Start up "cold" till engine operating temps, fuel trims do spike.. my fuel trims and VE are smooth as silk too. Idle on 1300cc injectors are +/- 2% and cruise is +/-3-4% .. But start up cold, trims do go haywire. The way HPT sets up the cranking and start up pulsewidth could be more user friendly in order to get a hand on it..

[mxatunerjg]

I have argued the Diablo method forever. The fact is you can take a set of 6.4 injectors and get the injector info for the same year car and input it into a 5.7 car of the same year. That car will run like it should with trims in a very acceptable range. You can also take a set of ID injectors and input the proper injector data and the car will run like it should with trims in a very acceptable range. In both scenarios WOT will be spot on to the PE tables. Proper injector info is key, and for that reason we onl sell ID now. It makes tuning soooo much easier, especially when tuning a heavily modified setup. Sort of helps to take a variable out of the situation.

[Dynamic]

This was (and still is...) a bit of a confusing endeavor to me.

Over the weekend I replaced the stock 5.7 injectors in my 6.4 stroker with OEM 6.4 injectors. No other changes made. I started the engine after replacing the injectors, but before adjusting the tune just to make sure I didn't have any fuel leaks, etc. Sure enough, the wideband showed way rich...no surprise there. I went into the tune and copy and pasted the injector data from a stock 6.4 tune. Again, no other changes. I reflashed and started the engine. It ran and idled, but it was so lean it was scary! Wideband was showing 16.5:1-17:1 at all throttle settings. Needless to say, I didn't drive the vehicle in this configuration.

What I ended up doing was going back into the injector data from the 6.4 tune and editing the injector pulsewidth table, ultimately removing 9% from the values, and then rescaling the axis on the fuel mass table to match. This worked pretty well, and got me within a percent or two of stoich, according to the wideband. From there, I have been logging the wideband and tweaking the VE tables. The car runs well, and the VE is pretty close now, but it's still a mystery to me why it worked this way...

[duster360]

Proper injector info is key, and for that reason we only sell ID now. It makes tuning soooo much easier, especially when tuning a heavily modified setup. Sort of helps to take a variable out of the situation.

Too right!

Thinking you can just use a Scalar multiplier % to pump up whatever "stock" injector mass/flow you happen to start with is such a joke.
The Air model is for Air and Fuel model is for Fuel. Raping the Air model(VE) to band-aid an inaccurate Fuel model(% multiplier that's nowhere near close) is just hack,,lol.

[mxatunerjg]

Too right!

Thinking you can just use a Scalar multiplier % to pump up whatever "stock" injector mass/flow you happen to start with is such a joke.
The Air model is for Air and Fuel model is for Fuel. Raping the Air model(VE) to band-aid an inaccurate Fuel model(% multiplier that's nowhere near close) is just hack,,lol.

Yes. There is more to injector modeling than just base fuel flow, especially if running boost. Manifold pressure needs to be accounted for in the injector model, if it is not, you will be chasing your tail trying to make things work. If the scaling for manifold pressure is not dealt with you may get fueling correct in one situation, but in another situation with the same airflow, but different manifold pressure your fueling will be incorrect.

[MSwezey]

Here's my research

Bosch 60lb gt500 injectors 0280158298:
InjPW vs Fuel mass:
0 0
0.00021875 0.032
0.001203125 0.128
0.0034375 0.232
0.004 0.328
0.0045625 0.432
0.00540625 0.528
0.0061875 0.632
0.006921875 0.728
0.008078125 0.928
0.01203125 1.232
0.01553125 1.728
0.090125 10
0.695046875 100


Fuel mass vs InjPW
0 0
0.032 0.00021875
0.128 0.001203125
0.232 0.0034375
0.328 0.004
0.432 0.0045625
0.528 0.00540625
0.632 0.0061875
0.728 0.006921875
0.928 0.008078125
1.232 0.01203125
1.728 0.01553125
10 0.090125
100 0.695046875

caniggia,

What did you set your injector min pulse width to and did you edit the offsets?

I have the 298s as well.

[Javier Wilde]

Very usefull tread....thanks alot.
But i see on hellcat stock tune on injePW offset table Y axis goes from 250 Kpa to 550 Kpa. Now 6.4 Srt it goes from 0 to 100 Kpa. So for a a boosted 6.4 you just scale like hellcat?. Or they are different PID?. Or you should scale 0 to 550 Kpa???.
Thanks.

[Hammersrt]

I myself interested. Just put my motor together and it starts rough then smoothes out but running lean. Just bought my Tuner and I have never tuned before so I think this will take a while. Excited I have her back to running with the stroker kit and all...trying to be very careful. Any help and getting her to fatten up a bit would be appreciated. She idles 14.7 to 15.6...give some throttle will drop to 12.7 but right back up to 16.4

[chevy lover]

ID lists their injector data for VE tuning for lack of a better term. I went through this when I put ID1700's in a Hellcat. I ended up having Paul give me data similar to OE but with more breakpoints. It worked great.

Can you share this data please? I have the same issue with same car and same injectors

[wadejesu]

Mustang-FI114992-110324, I think these are what's in my 426 Hemi, Siemens Deka 80lb 875cc, anybody know where I can get a data sheet?