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Thread: Tip in bog, O2's read lean, lots of fuel added by pcm

  1. #1
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    Tip in bog, O2's read lean, lots of fuel added by pcm

    Hey guys,

    I'm fighting a tip in bog and I would love a second set of eyes on it. Attached is a log.

    012715 b.hpl

    About 1/4 of the way into the log, I pull away from a light (M6). The bog occurs, RPMs drop, O2's go lean and yet there is a lot of fuel going in 8-11 ms. I've tried adding and removing airflow from the VE tables in this area, and nothing seems to help.

    Any ideas? Are my O2's bad? They seem good otherwise...

    Most recent tune here:
    2001 LT1 028 knock retard.hpt

    Jason
    1996 Camaro SS M6
    24X conversion
    Ultradyne 230/238 .565/.565 114+2
    heads, shorty headers
    30 LB red SVO injectors
    LOTS of suspension...
    Last edited by JasonS5555; 03-10-2015 at 01:46 PM.

  2. #2
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    Is everyone stumped? Of have I missed something obvious?

    Thanks,
    1996 Camaro SS M6 - 24X conversion - stock bottom end - heads - shorty headers - 58mm TB
    Ultradyne 230/238 .565/.565 112+4 - 30 LB red top SVO injectors - LOTS of suspension...

    2002 GMC 2500 HD Duramax M6 - Just starting the tune on a stock motor now that I have a good clutch on order...

  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner Road's Avatar
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    Disconnect your maf sensor connector and drive it see if the bog goes away. Maf looks little skewed too me.

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    Bog is there with or without the MAF. Thanks for the thoughts.

    Jason
    1996 Camaro SS M6 - 24X conversion - stock bottom end - heads - shorty headers - 58mm TB
    Ultradyne 230/238 .565/.565 112+4 - 30 LB red top SVO injectors - LOTS of suspension...

    2002 GMC 2500 HD Duramax M6 - Just starting the tune on a stock motor now that I have a good clutch on order...

  5. #5
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    I thought I would attach a screen shot of the troublesome area of the log. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

    3-12-2015 2-13-18 PM.jpg

    Thanks,
    Jason
    1996 Camaro SS M6 - 24X conversion - stock bottom end - heads - shorty headers - 58mm TB
    Ultradyne 230/238 .565/.565 112+4 - 30 LB red top SVO injectors - LOTS of suspension...

    2002 GMC 2500 HD Duramax M6 - Just starting the tune on a stock motor now that I have a good clutch on order...

  6. #6
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    Look at your spark.

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    That happens after the bog. Note just before it, the timing is ~30 deg. I don't think you can run that much at 400 rpm, but I'm not sure. I'm just basing that on the stock timing tables. Thanks!

    Jason
    1996 Camaro SS M6 - 24X conversion - stock bottom end - heads - shorty headers - 58mm TB
    Ultradyne 230/238 .565/.565 112+4 - 30 LB red top SVO injectors - LOTS of suspension...

    2002 GMC 2500 HD Duramax M6 - Just starting the tune on a stock motor now that I have a good clutch on order...

  8. #8
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    There's only a few things out there that I could personally see doing this especially with injectors firing a lot in combination with an extreme lean out. First and obvious being injection timing. I know I've personally over adjusted the timing for cams and had lean tip in issues, maxed injector pulse widths with throttle and high pulse widths at idle. The other being you've flashed the wrong year model setup into your ecm and the modules suddenly don't agree with one another. Had a boss mustang I tuned and anyone out there who's tuned a boss perhaps knows there are things in the background of the tune that are not able to be adjusted that can cause problems which is why a gt cal is preferred. Well long story short the info I had written down wasn't for a 13 gt (the year boss I was tuning), it was for the 11 and 12 year models and after driving for about 15 minutes it would suddenly loose cylinders and go super lean even though it never once did that on the dyno durring tuning. Seriously doubt that's your problem, but I do see where you've changed some of the pickup counts - perhaps something corresponding to this? I don't have my laptop to view your datalogs, but a couple of things to think about...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
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  9. #9
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    JasonS555 default.cfg

    There is an awesome amount of TPS activity during throttle tipin across the board. Is that you feathering it to keep it going or are you steady on the pedal? Try this .cfg.

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  10. #10
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    Thanks for the thoughts guys. I was feathering to keep it going.

    I really appreciate it Ed!

    Jason
    1996 Camaro SS M6 - 24X conversion - stock bottom end - heads - shorty headers - 58mm TB
    Ultradyne 230/238 .565/.565 112+4 - 30 LB red top SVO injectors - LOTS of suspension...

    2002 GMC 2500 HD Duramax M6 - Just starting the tune on a stock motor now that I have a good clutch on order...

  11. #11
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonS5555 View Post
    Thanks for the thoughts guys. I was feathering to keep it going.

    I really appreciate it Ed!

    Jason
    Jason,

    There seems to be a large vacumn drop with the littlest of throttle opening????? Transitions instantly to FTC 22 which normally is wot???? looks like in PE at least LTFT/STFT go to 0? MAP zone boundaries?

    Still thinking....

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

    ERM Performance Tuning -- Interactive Learning ..from tuning software training to custom tunes
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  12. #12
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    Hey Ed,

    Really appreciate the help. I did some logging yesterday with a tweaked version of the cfg you sent me. I added commanded AFR and IAC count.

    Here is the log:
    031415 g.hpl

    You're right, the FTC spends a ton of time in cell 22 but it isn't in PE mode if you look at the commanded AFR. It does go to 12.3 AFR at WOT but not other times. Not sure what's going on. I'll look more closely at the MAP zone boundaries.

    MAP boundaries don't look crazy to me....

    ______ Stock --- My Tune
    Low --- 32 --- 45
    Mid --- 57 --- 60
    High --- 77 ---- 80

    My PE enable MAP is 25. Should it be higher?

    Thanks again,
    Jason
    Last edited by JasonS5555; 03-16-2015 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Added MAP boundary values
    1996 Camaro SS M6 - 24X conversion - stock bottom end - heads - shorty headers - 58mm TB
    Ultradyne 230/238 .565/.565 112+4 - 30 LB red top SVO injectors - LOTS of suspension...

    2002 GMC 2500 HD Duramax M6 - Just starting the tune on a stock motor now that I have a good clutch on order...

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonS5555 View Post
    Bog is there with or without the MAF. Thanks for the thoughts.

    Jason
    Jason,

    Just for info, how did you go about determining it happened in mod MAF and VE? Your current tune is in blended mode (high RPM Disable = 4000) and the VE (Dynamic Airflow) is used to validate the final airflow requirements during transient conditions. Just to be clear, if you set the High RPM Disable to 400, then it would be MAF only and for VE only you would set the MAF Frequency High limit to 1, the P0101-103 DTCS to fail on first error and check the 3 ses boxes (belts and suspender) and just to make sure you ae in Speed Density I like to zero the MAF table.

    The narrowband O2's are showing lean during the bog and would like to see a wideband interpratation if we could.

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  14. #14
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonS5555 View Post
    Hey Ed,

    Really appreciate the help. I did some logging yesterday with a tweaked version of the cfg you sent me. I added commanded AFR and IAC count.

    Here is the log:
    031415 g.hpl

    You're right, the FTC spends a ton of time in cell 22 but it isn't in PE mode if you look at the commanded AFR. It does go to 12.3 AFR at WOT but not other times. Not sure what's going on. I'll look more closely at the MAP zone boundaries.

    MAP boundaries don't look crazy to me....

    Stock My Tune
    Low 32 45
    Mid 57 60
    High 77 80

    My PE enable MAP is 25. Should it be higher?

    Thanks again,
    Jason
    Jason,


    For PE you could go to 85 kPa enable and set the throttle enables to say 25-35%.

    Map Boundaries look ok.

    Need to find some Torque management PIDs in your setup that can be logged to see if it or Traction control is in play.

    Why dont you try a little timing in the area.

    LAstly could you post the latest tune that matches the log.

    Ed M
    Last edited by mowton; 03-16-2015 at 08:45 AM.
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

    ERM Performance Tuning -- Interactive Learning ..from tuning software training to custom tunes
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  15. #15
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    Thanks Ed.

    Yeah, when I was tuning the MAF and VE tables, I followed your word doc on the subject. So they may not be perfect, but they should be at least close. And yes, the bog was there when I tuned both.

    I'll try increasing the PE enable value, but seeing that the MAP is going to ~90 + during the bog, I don't think it will help.

    I have a wide band, but prep on my Formula Ford has taken more time than expected and I haven't gotten a bung welded in to the y pipe yet. That is on the priority list

    The latest tune is attached. I increased the 7000Hz and up portion of the MAF 5% to richen the car a tad at WOT from what I was seeing during the MAF tuning. I'm not trying to tune with the narrow band O2's, just trying to make it rich and then lean it out once I get the WB installed.

    2001 LT1 032.hpt


    Thanks!
    Jason
    1996 Camaro SS M6 - 24X conversion - stock bottom end - heads - shorty headers - 58mm TB
    Ultradyne 230/238 .565/.565 112+4 - 30 LB red top SVO injectors - LOTS of suspension...

    2002 GMC 2500 HD Duramax M6 - Just starting the tune on a stock motor now that I have a good clutch on order...

  16. #16
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonS5555 View Post
    Thanks Ed.

    Yeah, when I was tuning the MAF and VE tables, I followed your word doc on the subject. So they may not be perfect, but they should be at least close. And yes, the bog was there when I tuned both.

    I'll try increasing the PE enable value, but seeing that the MAP is going to ~90 + during the bog, I don't think it will help.

    I have a wide band, but prep on my Formula Ford has taken more time than expected and I haven't gotten a bung welded in to the y pipe yet. That is on the priority list

    The latest tune is attached. I increased the 7000Hz and up portion of the MAF 5% to richen the car a tad at WOT from what I was seeing during the MAF tuning. I'm not trying to tune with the narrow band O2's, just trying to make it rich and then lean it out once I get the WB installed.

    2001 LT1 032.hpt


    Thanks!
    Jason
    OK, as you dont have a referenced fuel system, correct your IFR with the increasing slope to 80 kPa.

    The PE change wont help as you said for the bog, just a good thing to do.

    Lets see what the IFR does before any other changes.

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  17. #17
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    Hey Ed,

    Sorry, I may have the nomenclature backwards. With a '96 LT1, the fuel pressure does NOT need to be varied with MAP
    1996 Camaro SS M6 - 24X conversion - stock bottom end - heads - shorty headers - 58mm TB
    Ultradyne 230/238 .565/.565 112+4 - 30 LB red top SVO injectors - LOTS of suspension...

    2002 GMC 2500 HD Duramax M6 - Just starting the tune on a stock motor now that I have a good clutch on order...

  18. #18
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonS5555 View Post
    Hey Ed,

    Sorry, I may have the nomenclature backwards. With a '96 LT1, the fuel pressure does NOT need to be varied with MAP
    OK so it is vacumn referenced so at that the IFR should be flatlined....its ok as is.

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

    ERM Performance Tuning -- Interactive Learning ..from tuning software training to custom tunes
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  19. #19
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    Jason have you tried changing your injector boundaries or injection timing any yet? I can't look at your tune at the moment and know Ed always knows a lot on these subjects, so I know he's being a great help, but I'm really wondering if your 24x conversion hasn't thrown your injection timing off. Like I stated previously, in order to have a lot of fuel going in and still have an all out lean stall or stumble, all your fuel must be going out the tailpipe. Try retarding your injection timing by raising your boundary up a little. Better to do with Air Fuel sensor, but perhaps a keen eye on your fuel trims will help you to improvise.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  20. #20
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Jason have you tried changing your injector boundaries or injection timing any yet? I can't look at your tune at the moment and know Ed always knows a lot on these subjects, so I know he's being a great help, but I'm really wondering if your 24x conversion hasn't thrown your injection timing off. Like I stated previously, in order to have a lot of fuel going in and still have an all out lean stall or stumble, all your fuel must be going out the tailpipe. Try retarding your injection timing by raising your boundary up a little. Better to do with Air Fuel sensor, but perhaps a keen eye on your fuel trims will help you to improvise.
    I'll be honest, I don't have alot of experience with these conversion so I am struggling as well. I know the firing order changes with cylinder 2/3 and 7/4 which I see changed in the tune but was wondering if there was a harness supplied if it did the same thing....so a double positive in this case is a negative???? The O2 signals look a bit strange to me in conjunction with that though. So I kind am leaning towards a fuel source issue as well. The one or two conversion tunes I have seen, did maintain the stock boundaries where Jasons has been changed a bit.

    This is a tough one....

    The only things I can say for this post is Disable the spark smoothing and put the adaptive Idle Airflow In Gear AC off back to stock. You need some "play" to move about to give the adaptive idle a chance over time/weather conditions.

    Still thinking

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

    ERM Performance Tuning -- Interactive Learning ..from tuning software training to custom tunes
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