Need to Clear My Conscience About This.

[gmtech16450yz]

Most of what I pointed out was in reference to the charts not the other parts I just included them in the pics for everyone. There is definitely a lot wrong!

Yeah just looking at that one screenshot I counted 10 major problems. It's almost hard to create a tune that puts every single aspect of the way the engine is running in the worst possible scenario. And TBSteck, like Mike said, I also put around 50% of the blame on you. Look at that yellow line in the chart that's second from the bottom. That's coolant temp. You went WOT when the coolant temp was 84 degrees!!! Then you went WOT 2 more times while the thermostat was still 50 degrees away from opening for the first time. Really?

[gmtech16450yz]

TBSteck do not hold me to my 50%. I don't know the whole story. Maybe Term2 never saw a log like this, or maybe he warned you, etc etc etc. Too many variables that I don't know about and as far as I'm concerned tuning comes with its own risks that you accepted by being tuned. As for who is at fault and anything of the similar that is up to the two of you. At a minimum I hope you learned a bit about tuning for future reference and I hope you are learning what types of questions to ask.

John it's always a pleasure seeing your input. I don't feel like I am the greatest tuner of all time and maybe you wouldn't mind looking at some of my stuff and give me some pointers assuming I need any. I'm always willing to bounce ideas off of another person. It's how we learn.

That's the true sign of a wise person, someone who realizes they can learn from anyone no matter how smart, dumb, experienced or new they are. I don't know everything that's for damn sure, and this has always been a good place to learn for me. The problem is it's hit or miss with me lately. I had minor surgery today, that's why I'm sitting on the couch staring at this stuff! I honestly can count how many forum posts I've made in the last 6 months on one hand. I just don't have the time, too many irons in the fire. So yeah, I have no problem looking at anything, my problem is it might take me a few months to get to it! That's why I'm so happy you guys have kept this LNF stuff going on here, since I can't. You, Bill, CSSOB and others have done an awesome job of helping others out here. At best I'd be a flaky contributor on any of the forums anymore simply because I don't have the time.

I just couldn't stay away from this one though when I saw those logs! I feel bad for EVERYONE involved. It's hard doing this tuning thing, and long distance tuning is the worst. That's why I've been extremely picky on who I take on to help with tuning. The first time I saw a log with this kind of abuse is the last time I would have been involved with any tuning on that car. And guys modding their engines in their backyards or garages is usually not good anyway. You need to know a little bit about what you're doing before you start doubling the hp of your 4 banger. (Not "you" personally Mike, "you" in general) Unfortunately, there's a ton of guys out there doing it. And there's a ton of guys in the very same situation as TBSteck here. I see the CTS-V/ LSA guys blowing engines all the time from bad tuning. The difference there is it usually costs about $15k to build an LSA back up. Oh well, not much I can do about it other than putting my two cents in like I did here. The sad part is that it's almost always too late.

[TBSteck]

Thanks to everyone that has looked at the logs and tune files. It is extremely appreciated.

Let me give you a brief history ...

About 11 years ago we (wife and I) raced a '02 LS1 and I used LS1Edit to tune it myself. It took over 2 years of tuning it to get it pretty good. I took my time and didn't hurt the engine in the process and we only raced it for about 4 or 5 years before I wrecked it in a race beyond repair and then we got this car. The powertrain was sold to another racer and it is still running hard.

But with this car we did mostly SCCA Solo Stock / Street classes until SCCA again eliminated our Street Class and put us in ASP because of the Hoosiers I like to run.

My wife and I own an IT consulting business and have been very busy over the winter and still into the spring so we decide to pay very good money to have a professional tune done to our car. I always stressed to Dave (Term2) not to hurt the engine. I wanted an aggressive tune but lean toward the mild side - the car is still driven on the street to clients once in awhile.

He gave me his first tune and I drove it and told him that something wasn't right because it would miss around the 3000 rpm range and I sent him that log. He would give me another tune and I would say the same thing and send him another log. Every tune I got, around 6 tunes, and every time I would send him the matching log(s) and tell him the same thing - it still missing around the 3000 rpm range. I did everything he ever asked, which wasn't a lot, I switched out the plugs when he asked. The engine only has about 36,000 miles but I did it anyways - no difference. Once I got a cam sensor code and I put back in DDMWorks tune and no miss and no cam sensor code.

The only tunes that were used was Term2 except one short drive (maybe 10 miles round trip) I had in DDMWorks to see if his would miss - it didn't.

The reason I paid Term2 a lot of money, IMO, to do the tuning because I didn't have the time right now to do it. I made the mistake thinking that he knew what he was doing and was correctly the issues after seeing the logs. I sent him every log after each tune.

Yes I realize it is actually my responsibility because it is my car but if you can't trust your "professional" tuner ...

I have asked Term2 for my money back but I don't ever expect him to return it but he should in my eyes. IMO that is the least he could do ...

Anyone have a tuner that they would trust with their car? I'm back in the market ... I do have my engine builder looking for one in the NorthWest. I just delivered the engine to him and waiting for him to have the time to get to it.

Oh, I attached the actually Config file I used for the logs in case you want to see what Term2 and I saw.

[gmtech16450yz]

TBSteck, can you do me a favor? Can you pull the tune that was in your ECM when the engine blew and compare it to the one David posted in his original post in this thread? I'd just like to make sure they're the same.

David, you mentioned that you "left timing very low" to make sure that there was no knock. I saw NEGATIVE ign timing during his WOT runs in the logs (-1.5 degrees at one point). You do know that severely retarded ign timing like that on a Direct Injected engine is just as dangerous as overly advanced and can actually contribute to engine failures? I would have rather seen 15 degrees at WOT in those logs than the close to TDC readings I saw. Direct Injection engines DO NOT like overly rich mixtures or overly retarded ign timing. Years ago I used to tell guys that couldn't get rid of KR on their LNF's to "Lean it out and advance the ign timing". Completely against common engine knowledge for the past 100 years or so, but it works on Direct Injected engines when a tuner has retarded the hell out of it and richened it up to the point of hydraulic knocking.

That engine was running so inefficiently that it's absolutely no surprise why it blew. Again, I'm sorry to be blunt, but you asked for feedback on this situation. In MY opinion, this engine would still be running if the tune was left completely stock. Whatever tune was in it during those logs made the engine run worse than stock calibrations would have.

[TBSteck]

The attached tune is the latest one I got from him on 4/6.

MikeM173, I guess I don't see what else I could have done, except learn how to read the logs and tune my own car - which I don't have the time right now to do hence the reason I had Term2 do it.

I sent him a log after every tune, shouldn't he take some responsibility on this? Shouldn't he have seen these issue from the logs?

[TBSteck]

Yes you are correct I should have / will learn to read the logs, this will be a $5k+ lesson learned. BTW, no offense ever taken, been on this Earth too long to do that. I need and except all the help / suggestions anyone gives me.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Did you copy and paste or write entire ?

[TBSteck]

? I just did a flash with the tune he gave me, just clicked on the flash icon, didn't open it just went on faith.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

i would like to know the vin number and calibration detail for your DDM file, iirc that was the one you say wasn't having problems.
there could be a background calibration error that caused some of these issues.

dont post the tune unless DDM authorizes it, just wish to see a screenshot of that specific section.

[TBSteck]

Correct, it was the one that didn't miss around the 3000 rpm range. I'll Email Dave and ask him if I may post. Vin #? What are you really wanting to know? It is a 2008 Solstice GXP with ZOK option. Sorry it such an odd question to ask and right now my car in 1 hour South of me and the engine is 2 hours North of me and that makes me find my insurance stuff and that could be a challenge if you know what I mean. If it is really necessary I'll find it because I really want some answers. I'll post it after Dave responses to my request.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

these are the screens i am talking about. you will only be able to open one section at a time(i used paint to put both on the same screen).
i am curious if the screens are majorly different between the two files. these screens are from the last term tune file you posted.

i flashed a 2005 ss with a late 06 ss file and half the gauges on the dash worked backwards, along with throwing a few codes for signal errors. we dont recommend flashing a tune that wasn't from made from your vehicles original file because it is a possibility it causes operational issues. mike is right, im just looking into some verification details, thats why i didn't request the whole tune, i dont need to see any of Daves work to check serial verification and vehicle data.

[TBSteck]

Here is the calibration details from the Factory, DDMWorks and Terminator's tunes ... they are all the same.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

thats good, its not a file mixup.

[codename Bil Doe]

I've been at the track and working on the racecar this whole weekend. But, from those screenshots...wow. GMTech (as always so eloquently) and MikeM said enough. Nothing to add that wouldn't be piling on.

I've noticed in this forum as well as the V6 and gen5 V8 that people are in the stone ages when it comes to tuning torque-based ECU's. GM took their knowledge of Bosch's work on the LNF and applied their own version to all their new motors.

Unless a universal post is made across all forums I see a lot more engines being destroyed. Torque-based tuning is a whole different animal. From the Cruze and Sonic turbos to the CTS VSport/Ats-V ttv6 to the LT1 none of the posts I've read seem to display much of an understanding of the logic.

This isn't old school LS1 tuning. It's like the jump from carbs to EFI or sbc to LS1. It's a different approach.

On a side note to GMTech, hope your surgery went well and you recover quickly. 700whp cars were meant to be driven!

[TBSteck]

I've noticed in this forum as well as the V6 and gen5 V8 that people are in the stone ages when it comes to tuning torque-based ECU's. GM took their knowledge of Bosch's work on the LNF and applied their own version to all their new motors.

Unless a universal post is made across all forums I see a lot more engines being destroyed. Torque-based tuning is a whole different animal.

Would you like to give us a "Tuning 101" class? I sure don't want to replace my engine again. Could you or would you start a torque based tuning thread and give us a step by step of what to do and what to look for in the logs. What our goals are based on the results in the logs what to adjust to achieve those goals? I think something like that would be awesome. And if there is something like this around, please point me/us in the right direction.

Thanks.

[JimmyS]

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Reading the information and watching the videos that CSSOB put together will get you started. When you start logging, make sure your engine is at full operating temperature. Log a nice long run of normal driving before beating on it to make sure things look good. Post the log here if you have concerns or questions. When you run a WOT log, run 1 run and then review it. If there are issues like you had before, the worst thing you can do is to keep beating on it thinking it will fix itself.

[gmtech16450yz]

On a side note to GMTech, hope your surgery went well and you recover quickly. 700whp cars were meant to be driven!

Not to derail the thread but Thanks Bill and Mike! I'm doing fine. The other guy... not so good

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Looks like a tig weld roll of coins. Have a good recovery.

[powermizer]

Not to derail the thread but Thanks Bill and Mike! I'm doing fine. The other guy... not so good

That doesn't look good or fun. Get well soon. PS I hope the Sky wasn't involved in your pain in the neck!!!

[powermizer]

I can agree with TBSteck on this. I search and search, but its hard to find what were looking for. The search on here isn't the best. Thank goodness for cobaltoverbooster, codename bil doe, gmtech, mike173, Iambroke. and so many more.

I would love to see a good cofig file like gmtech's and have everyone give there opinion about what we want to, or not to see. I can see negative timing being bad, but some theory behind it helps me to understand better. Like knowing that raising the DAL alone will raise boost, But using the waist gate duty cycle is better, because we can control it more precisely, Or am I wrong by that statement? That's what I mean. Thanks to everyone on here. I know I can figure it out, but I think it comes slower to me than most. To many years dialing in carburetors and distributors. LOL