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Thread: This will help make sense of the Mapped Points on the newer Fords...

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by 96gt4.6 View Post
    Eric,

    Have the Mapped Points been added to OS # KTCP4CZ? 2012 F150 5.0L ECU.

    I can't seem to find them in the Scanner Channel List?

    Thank You!
    I'd like to know the same truck but for this OS: KTCP3C9

    Thanks.

  2. #22
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    I am kind of dredging this one up, but I think this is the most relevant thread for it:

    Is there some sort of documentation that is publically available that details what criteria is used by the PCM's HDFX process in selection of mapped points?

    I know we have the weighting in the scanner, which is a HUGE help. I know there are some tables that lay out which mapped points are used for things like emission reduction and fuel economy. There are also tables that lay out the intake valve opening and exhaust valve closing for each of the mapped points. So some of this data is available, but there has to be more to the process that can help make better sense of things.

    Maybe it's way simpler than I am making it out in my head, but I have an issue with changing things and not knowing WHY. Once I know why something is a certain way, I generally have a much greater understanding of it. I am working on dialing in spark on my tune and I am using the table-to-table percentage method laid out in LaSota's book, which is fantastic and generally easy to understand, but I am just trying to wrap my head around the mapped points system as a whole.

    Maybe I just need to do tons more data logging and get more real world info to start putting the system together from that perspective.

    Thanks for any info.

    Mitch

  3. #23
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    It was explained to me in the terms of a sphere. Most spark maps are based on an x and y axis table, which in my mind is flat like a table. The HDFX has layers of x and y axis tables and the pcm can move between them as needed. How the pcm determines the parameters for which map is used is the big mystery.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by txcharlie View Post
    It was explained to me in the terms of a sphere. Most spark maps are based on an x and y axis table, which in my mind is flat like a table. The HDFX has layers of x and y axis tables and the pcm can move between them as needed. How the pcm determines the parameters for which map is used is the big mystery.
    That 'how' is the answer I am really looking for. Thanks for the response though.

  5. #25
    That's awesome. But that's a result of tune.
    To be complete, please describe what conditions must be met to use specific mapped point, so what exactly tables says when mapped point 0, when mapped point 6 etc.
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  6. #26
    Can someone help me understand what mapped points are used for cam timing and whether they are related to load? I want to get a rough idea what happens with cam timing depending on engine load.

  7. #27
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    all the conditions for mapped point selection are in the VCT tables already, you just have to open them and see how they reference each other.

    the only thing I don't know what it is yet is the "Distance Along the Mapped Points" tables.

  8. #28
    Thanks for the reply. I saw the mapped points in the VCT tables, I cant scan my car currently to see where the bouncing ball goes... so thats why I asked. Trying to get an idea of the mapped points relate to load. If so, in what order do they go from low to high load? Seems somewhat obvious in Erics video, but some of the mapped points are skipped when he revs the engine. Just not clear if all mapped points relate to all functions like cam and ign timing and if its actually related to load.

    David

  9. #29
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    They go up by load but some are reserved for emissions reductions and it depends on if it is targeting Driveability or Stability. I am sure it depends on the "strategy" or OS and ECM that is being run which points those are. Generally though as load goes up the Mapped Point goes "up."

  10. #30
    Is there any table saying when which mapped point should be used?
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  11. #31
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    yes, just open them and look at them and it will make sense. i don't have my laptop with me.

  12. #32
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    Would also love to know which mapped point is used when, but I have done a lot of logging and I've determined the following which might be helpful:
    Car is a 2015 M6 base model GT:
    1. Mapped points 0 to 12 are used mostly when cruising around and at idle.
    2. Mapped point 1 and 0 each used 30% of the time, 4 and 5 each 10% of the time, so 1,0,4 and 5 used 80% of the time when cruising and idling. I don't mess with my tables that are 0 to 12 because they'll do nothing to make more WOT power
    3. For WOT and higher rpm's 14, 21, 22 and 25 are used 20%, 14%, 29% and 13% of the time, with 14 mostly lower rpm and 21 and 22 up closer to 6000 rpm, as rpm climbs from 3000 rpm it seems to use mostly 14 then 25 then 21 and then 22 around 7000, always blending from one to the other.
    4. So for WOT timing changes I only mess with 14, 21, 22 and 25. The other tables aren't used enough to make much of an impact

    Above data is based on about 4300 rows of data logged with driving mix of banging through the gears to rev cut and then cruising in stop and go traffic. Conditions where with inlet temps around 85 deg here in San Antonio TX.

    Not sure if this is helpful, but it helped me determine that I only need to mess with 4 tables to improve my WOT timing our anything else WOT and above 3000 rpm related.

  13. #33
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Sorry, maybe I am dumb, but why not just enable OP points and tables? Then you have one set of values at 100% and you don't have to mess with percentages and moving points.

    I would leave all of the VCT stock and enable OP and optimize that for WOT. Unless you have aftermarket cams there is no reason to mess with the rest of the mapped points unless you want to eliminate the Emissions Reductions criteria for more part throttle torque/

  14. #34
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    Valid point, just trying to understand why the 2015 doesn't have OP enabled and what tables it uses instead. But I agree, enabling OP and then just focusing on that seems to be a more manageable route

  15. #35
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    I don't have a 15, but I've seen many people comment that they can't get the car to go into OP mode, even with the table enabled and adjusting parameters for going into OP. Maybe someone has sorted this out, but I haven't seen any comments stating this.

  16. #36
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    I don't think the scanner is displaying it, the mapped points do not show OP but if I log cam angles, they seem to coincide with my OP settings.....

    There is still a long way to go with HPT and Ford, I think. When you guys notice stuff that doesn't seem to jive, please post it or email it to Support so we can keep progressing. They don't have the cars, we do.....

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    yes, just open them and look at them and it will make sense. i don't have my laptop with me.
    OK, just took a look.
    As for optimum power it's clear, has separate tables for cam, so when it goes in OP mode it takes cam settings from here and uses timing from optimum power.

    Now part throttle.

    Mapped points config - this is clear - so enable disable...
    Which are used in emission fuel econo and stability, clear.

    Now MP assigned to cams, not really clear.

    Let say intake in real has 40deg and exaust 15deg.
    For 40deg intake is MP 3-4 and exhaust for 15deg is MP 9
    Does it means it mixes for eg MP3 and MP9 when cams are in such positions?
    But still not clear is which he will use when cam is 40 deg intake and 3 mapped points are assigned to this point.

    And final is, as in optimum power it's clear, how does he knows how to set cams in another modes?
    Is this somehow distance tables defining?

    So lets say i want to install locked cams, so VCT completly disabled. Is there a way to use unly one mapped point in all conditions to not copy timing over whole MP tables? I assume I could put car in optimum power at 0 load 0 pedal and this would be simplest.
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  18. #38
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Going from memory,

    For the cams, the path starts on the lower right side with the Desired Air Load tables. Basically, they will tell the ECM how much you are pushing the gas and choose Stability, Economy, or Driveability (or Optimum Power).

    Next, the Distance tables will look at RPM and load and decide which Distance Point to use. Now for all of them except for Driveability, the Distance Points reference another table just above those that relate the Distance Point to a Mapped Point in the IVO and ECV MP tables in that same area.

    Driveability, as best I can tell, Distance Points related directly to the Mapped Point cam angle tables.

    Now you can follow the path from Air Load to Distance Point to Cam Angle.

    I have been playing with different settings and ended up enabling Optimum Power (2016, should already work on 11-14s), and editing the Air Load tables to suit my preferences. I ended up leaving the Distance Point and Mapped Point tables stock because changing those gave me misfire codes since now the spark tables would be wrong.....I don't have time to reinvent Ford's wheel on this VVT/Spark relationship so it can just stay stock (with stock cams) and Optimum Power tables can handle all the WOT/heavy throttle stuff just fine.

    With aftermarket cams I suppose it would take a lot of work to fine tune the part throttle stuff, but I wouldn't really see an issue leaving it stock as long as the cams were installed like the stock cams, obviously with more duration and maybe lift....use Optimum power tables to handle overlap amount and location just the same.

    With locked cams however, I would think you just disable the VVT system entirely with the drop down box and mapped points would not even be a factor.

  19. #39
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    I pulled this off comp's website, hopefully it will help when thinking about how much overlap you want and where you want it in the RPM range and where you want it around TDC.....

    You can have more or less overlap, which we know, but how much do you want?
    You can have a given amount of overlap pushed BTDC or ATDC, which is best and when?
    You can change the overlap through the RPM range so where and how much is best at any given RPM?
    You want more overlap at low RPMs at WOT and less at high RPMs at WOT....but you want less overlap at low RPMs at idle and part throttle......unless you want EGR effect at part throttle then you want more overlap....
    Sheesh. Good thing we can alter cam timing!

    Cam Timing.jpg

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    I don't think the scanner is displaying it, the mapped points do not show OP but if I log cam angles, they seem to coincide with my OP settings.....

    There is still a long way to go with HPT and Ford, I think. When you guys notice stuff that doesn't seem to jive, please post it or email it to Support so we can keep progressing. They don't have the cars, we do.....
    I believe you are right. I talked to a tuner that uses SCT and he said he has had no issue with the 15s going into OP. Apparently the Scanner is not reading it correctly.